Why is Abby such a bitch?

[Veecksterama]

And why would Carter be in love with such an unattractive brat?

[Cory]

Because she's Abby.

--- Cory

[Richard3to16]

Because she's female?

[Anybody]

Post by Richard3to16
Because she's female?

Well that's a very silly statement. :-\


Abby had a very tough childhood (not as tough as some of course) - in
fact she probably had a very short childhood and was forced to grow up
very fast to look after her mother and brother. Because of this she has
a few "problems", but I can easily see why Carter could fall for her
(and NOT just the "packaging") - especially over the likes of Susan who
just seems to get more and more ditzy as seasons go on.

Added to this is probably Carter's need to "resuce the damsel in
ditress" (the White Knight syndrome) to a large degree.

[Banty]

Post by Anybody

Post by Richard3to16
Because she's female?

Well that's a very silly statement. :-\
Added to this is probably Carter's need to "resuce the damsel in
ditress" (the White Knight syndrome) to a large degree.

This is by far the biggest factor.

Does Carter know from anywhere a loving, uncomplicated relationship?

Banty

[Sharon]

Post by Banty

Post by Anybody

Post by Richard3to16
Because she's female?

Well that's a very silly statement. :-\
Added to this is probably Carter's need to "resuce the damsel in
ditress" (the White Knight syndrome) to a large degree.

This is by far the biggest factor.
Does Carter know from anywhere a loving, uncomplicated relationship?
Banty

Nope, but neither does Abby.

Doc Sharon

[Banty]

says...

Post by Banty

Post by Anybody

Post by Richard3to16
Because she's female?

Well that's a very silly statement. :-\
Added to this is probably Carter's need to "resuce the damsel in
ditress" (the White Knight syndrome) to a large degree.

This is by far the biggest factor.
Does Carter know from anywhere a loving, uncomplicated relationship?
Banty

Nope, but neither does Abby.

True.

Banty

[Shawn H]

Banty <***@newsguy.com> wrote:
: In article <260920031919476665%***@anywhere-anytime.com>, Anybody says...
:>
:>In article <***@mb-m11.aol.com>,
:>***@aol.com (Richard3to16) wrote:
:>
:>> Because she's female?
:>
:>Well that's a very silly statement. :-\

: ::snip::

:>
:>Added to this is probably Carter's need to "resuce the damsel in
:>ditress" (the White Knight syndrome) to a large degree.

: This is by far the biggest factor.

: Does Carter know from anywhere a loving, uncomplicated relationship?

With his family? Gamma was his rock, and even she wasn't really a nice
person. With her gone, he's really lost.

Shawn

[Richard3to16]

Post by Anybody

Post by Richard3to16
Because she's female?

Well that's a very silly statement. :-\

Yes it is. But this *is* episodic TV. Fiction at that. So she's whatever
writers want her to be. Like Dr. Benton. What a walking cliche. :)

[JC KW fan]

I don't think Abby is a bitch much like I don't think Carter is a jerk. They
are both humans who react like humans do when they are hurt, threatened,
concerned etc. Most or all of us have some sort of issues/insecurities that
affect how we react to different events in our lifes. No one comes close to
handling events perfectly. While I may care more about Carter, I do care
about Abby. They are the two characters I am most interested in. I care for
them individually and hope in the future they can deal with some of their
issues/insecurities so they can find their way back to each other .

Brenda
ERForum : http://www.erforums.com/forum/index.php
Carby Board : http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcarby

[Eric]

Post by JC KW fan
I don't think Abby is a bitch much like I don't think Carter is a
jerk. They are both humans who react like humans do when they are
hurt, threatened, concerned etc. Most or all of us have some sort of
issues/insecurities that affect how we react to different events in
our lifes. No one comes close to handling events perfectly. While I
may care more about Carter, I do care about Abby. They are the two
characters I am most interested in. I care for them individually and
hope in the future they can deal with some of their
issues/insecurities so they can find their way back to each other .

Well said.

[Banty]

Post by JC KW fan
I don't think Abby is a bitch much like I don't think Carter is a jerk. They
are both humans who react like humans do when they are hurt, threatened,
concerned etc. Most or all of us have some sort of issues/insecurities that
affect how we react to different events in our lifes. No one comes close to
handling events perfectly. While I may care more about Carter, I do care
about Abby. They are the two characters I am most interested in. I care for
them individually and hope in the future they can deal with some of their
issues/insecurities so they can find their way back to each other .

I'm with you on this, except that I don't hope they find their way back to each
other. This isn't a working relationship, and there's no presto-chango to fix
it (or even path of hard work).

My feeling on this is that both are in this relationship basically because they
feel they have to have a relationship. Carter could find someone better suited
if he would get past the urge to be fixit man. My hope is that he finds a new
relationship - a working one. Though I wonder if he'd recognize that if he saw
it. I wanna slap him sideways and say "Carter - you knew it at Gamma's funeral,
you should have been reminded at your reception on returning from Africa - this
Abby thing is a Bad Thing. Hurt, hassle, and hard feelings are Bad Things -
geddit? - Bad Things." I feel like giving him the Dr. Laura line about even
ameobas knowing enough to move away from harmful stimuli.

Abby needs to resolve a lot of things before she can really work in any
relationship. But she's not a bitch. Bitchy sometimes, but not a bitch.
She's earnest, honest, well-meaning, and hurting.

Banty

[Shawn H]

Banty <***@newsguy.com> wrote:

: Abby needs to resolve a lot of things before she can really work in any
: relationship. But she's not a bitch. Bitchy sometimes, but not a bitch.
: She's earnest, honest, well-meaning, and hurting.

And when she gets hurt, she strikes back. Even when it'd be so much easier
not to. Even when it won't help at all. I may not think that's wise, but I
understand it.

Shawn

[Bill]

Post by JC KW fan
I don't think Abby is a bitch much like I don't think Carter is a jerk. They
are both humans who react like humans do when they are hurt, threatened,
concerned etc. Most or all of us have some sort of issues/insecurities that
affect how we react to different events in our lifes. No one comes close to
handling events perfectly. While I may care more about Carter, I do care
about Abby. They are the two characters I am most interested in. I care for
them individually and hope in the future they can deal with some of their
issues/insecurities so they can find their way back to each other .
Brenda
ERForum : http://www.erforums.com/forum/index.php
Carby Board : http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcarby

A lot more people identify with Abby (dysfunctional family, waiting
for the other shoe to drop, the fixer, so she struggles with having a
healthy, stable reationship) than with Carter (trust fund wealthy
heir, but dysfunctional as well, very giving guy)BUT a lot of people
like Carter. His rant was good and predictable about the bureaucracy
over that prescription after his experience in Africa. This is still
a great dramatic show compared to most of the other junk on the tube.

[Shawn H]

Bill <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

: like Carter. His rant was good and predictable about the bureaucracy
: over that prescription after his experience in Africa. This is still
: a great dramatic show compared to most of the other junk on the tube.

It always has so much going on I really need to watch it 2 if not three
times to pick up on it all. I enjoy that.

Shawn

[doucar4ever]

Post by JC KW fan
I don't think Abby is a bitch much like I don't think Carter is a jerk. They
are both humans who react like humans do when they are hurt, threatened,
concerned etc.

Wrong...they are fictional characters who react how the writers want
them to. TPTB need to make up their minds. First Abby wants her key
back and dumps Carter's stuff at his locker. Then when he decides to
goes back to find Luka, she doesn't want him to go. After she broke
up with him, he didn't need to talk to her about it. He did need to
talk to her before he left the first time though.

Post by JC KW fan
I care for them individually and hope in the future they can deal with some
of their issues/insecurities so they can find their way back to each other .

Or this is the first step to breaking them up for good. Neither one
of them seem to be happy when they're together. Hopefully they can
find someone else that will.

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by doucar4ever
Then when he decides to
goes back to find Luka, she doesn't want him to go.

Well... it isn't like he actually explained to her WHY he is going. It was just
"There's a 12 o clock flight to Paris and I can connect to Kinshasa!" And when
she tried to get him to explain WHY he was going back to get Luka, he just kept
stuffing medical supplies in a duffle bag and ignoring her. (Maybe because HE
didn't really know why he was going yet?)

Naomi

[Sharon too]

Post by Naomi Pardue
Well... it isn't like he actually explained to her WHY he is going. It was just
"There's a 12 o clock flight to Paris and I can connect to Kinshasa!" And when
she tried to get him to explain WHY he was going back to get Luka, he just kept
stuffing medical supplies in a duffle bag and ignoring her. (Maybe because HE
didn't really know why he was going yet?)

I would have thought she could have figured it out for herself. On another
note, Carter has just come back from a war zone, one which he was intimately
involved in. Luka, although not a real close friend of Carter's in the past,
was his commrade. A soldier never leaves a fellow soldier's body behind.
Personally I don't think that Carter ever wanted to come back to Chicago and
this was a good reason for him to go back. He feels he has nothing left in
Chicago.

I would also think that if she cared she would have asked what she could do.

"John, since you're going to the Congo to bring back Luka, is there anything
I can do on this end?"

Instead she is wallowing in her own self pity. She might as well come on out
and ask, "What's in it for me?"

-Sharon

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
Well... it isn't like he actually explained to her WHY he is going. It was

just

Post by Naomi Pardue
"There's a 12 o clock flight to Paris and I can connect to Kinshasa!" And

when

Post by Naomi Pardue
she tried to get him to explain WHY he was going back to get Luka, he just

kept

Post by Naomi Pardue
stuffing medical supplies in a duffle bag and ignoring her. (Maybe

because HE

Post by Naomi Pardue
didn't really know why he was going yet?)

I would have thought she could have figured it out for herself. On another
note, Carter has just come back from a war zone, one which he was intimately
involved in. Luka, although not a real close friend of Carter's in the past,
was his commrade. A soldier never leaves a fellow soldier's body behind.
Personally I don't think that Carter ever wanted to come back to Chicago and
this was a good reason for him to go back. He feels he has nothing left in
Chicago.
I would also think that if she cared she would have asked what she could do.
"John, since you're going to the Congo to bring back Luka, is there anything
I can do on this end?"
Instead she is wallowing in her own self pity. She might as well come on out
and ask, "What's in it for me?"

Yeah. It was "*I* can't do this anymore.."

Do what? Be left behind - be out of the loop?

Well - she is out of the loop. They've never talked about Gamma. It was "where
is Luka" before Carter could even approach talking about what he had gone
through in Africa. If she had shut up and listen she'd have eventually learned
the whole story.

He is emotionally and life-experientially in a whole 'nother place
in the world and Abby hasn't begun to move.

Banty

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Sharon too
Luka, although not a real close friend of Carter's in the past,
was his commrade. A soldier never leaves a fellow soldier's body behind.

And a doctor would have to see that it's not very logical to risk your life to
retrieve a corpse. (Or, at least, there is not necessarily a huge rush here. He
doesn't even know for sure what happened yet. Abby IS correct that he could
wait a little, try to get some more information -- for all they know at this
point, the Alliance could already have the body and be preparing to ship it
back to Zagreb. [Which is logically where Luka would probably have wanted to be
buried anyway -- or actually probably Vukovar.]

Post by Sharon too
"John, since you're going to the Congo to bring back Luka, is there anything
I can do on this end?"
Instead she is wallowing in her own self pity. She might as well come on out
and ask, "What's in it for me?"

Ah, so Abby's not allowed to be hurt and confused? Abby has to be selfless
here? Abby has just learned that a friend/colleague/former lover has died,
(the look on her face when she walked into the lounge when Carter was on the
phone to Zagreb spoke pure grief to me) and is trying to figure out where her
relationship with Carter is going, but the only acceptable response from her is
"What can I do?"
I'm not saying that Abby is blameless. They have both done a lot of screwing
up, both in the past, and in their behavior in this eppy, and Carter is just as
guilty (or at least it's about 60/40 at this point in time.).

And yes, Carter *could have* and should have said something like "I need to do
this Abby. I need to go back there and find out what happened; bring him back.
If you can't understand that, I'm sorry, but it's what I have to do what right
now."

Naomi

[Sharon too]

Post by Naomi Pardue
And a doctor would have to see that it's not very logical to risk your life to
retrieve a corpse.

With the brutallity and third world-ness still fresh in his mind, as well as
the imprint on his forehead from the barrel of the gun of the rebel, and
sleep deprivation, I'm not sure we should expect Carter to act or think
logically at this point.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Ah, so Abby's not allowed to be hurt and confused? Abby has to be selfless
here?

I never said this. I'm sure she is. But putting things into perspective I
would have liked to have seen her think outside herself for once.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Abby has just learned that a friend/colleague/former lover has died,
(the look on her face when she walked into the lounge when Carter was on the
phone to Zagreb spoke pure grief to me)

Sure is.

and is trying to figure out where her

Post by Naomi Pardue
relationship with Carter is going,

She is? I believe she directed where her relationship was going with him
when she welcomed him home with a "Give me my key back" Hallmark moment.

Post by Naomi Pardue
I'm not saying that Abby is blameless. They have both done a lot of screwing
up, both in the past, and in their behavior in this eppy, and Carter is just as
guilty (or at least it's about 60/40 at this point in time.).

Agree here.

Post by Naomi Pardue
And yes, Carter *could have* and should have said something like "I need to do
this Abby. I need to go back there and find out what happened; bring him back.
If you can't understand that, I'm sorry, but it's what I have to do what right
now."

Probably would have been best, yes. But putting myself in his place, I would
have thrown my arms up in the air too and walked away. I watched the ep
again tonight and all I heard from Abby was me, me me.

Rewind back a year on this newsgroup and I would have been the one backing
her up. Whodathunk?

-Sharon

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Sharon too
With the brutallity and third world-ness still fresh in his mind, as well as
the imprint on his forehead from the barrel of the gun of the rebel, and
sleep deprivation, I'm not sure we should expect Carter to act or think
logically at this point.

Oh, I agree. I'm just a little puzzled as to why you seem to be expecting
perfection from Abby, while excusing Carter's mistakes and flaws.

Post by Sharon too
and is trying to figure out where her

Post by Naomi Pardue
relationship with Carter is going,

She is? I believe she directed where her relationship was going with him
when she welcomed him home with a "Give me my key back" Hallmark moment.

Right. At that moment she had decided. But after talking with Susan and
thinking about it, (and, especially after hearing about Luka), she was ready to
give it another chance -- but suddenly it seems that Carter -- who had been all
sweetness and apologies at 5 in the morning, is dumping her all over again.
Yeah, I'd be confused too.

Let's back up a little here and see what the relationship has been for the past
month or so.. (Previous to that it's been, over-all, good, with a few bumps in
the road, mostly related to Abby's drinking. [And, more specifically, to
*Carter's* inability to accept that he's fallen for a woman who is an
off-the-wagon if not-out-of-control alcoholic, and that, if he really loves
her, he's going to have to resist the need to fix her. [[A need he denies he
has, but very clearly DOES have.]]) Then...

Gamma dies. Abby rushes off to Iowa to get Eric. Carter is pissed. (Funny how
everyone crucified Abby for running off to get Eric -- who was alive and ill
and needed help, but thinks it's entirely ok for Carter to run off and get
Luka, who is (presumably) dead and beyond anyone's help.) Abby is very
apologetic, returns promptly, and, though we don't see it since it happens
between eppies, presumably comforts Carter in his grief, helps him with
the arrangements, and generally is supportive iin his time of need.
Eric again turns up to complicate matters and, left with an impossible
situation, Abby makes The Best Choice She Can At the Time (tm) a choice which
goes horribly wrong, causing embarressment for all. She, again, apologizes
profusely (and, again, here on the group, she was roundly criticized for
talking about HER feelings in her apology ["I feel like such a terrible
person"], but that is a commonly "approved" method of working out problems. You
are *supposed* to talk about your own feelings, rather than assuming what the
other person is feeling), but was, at that point, dumped by Carter. Another
attempt to apologize in the hospital later that day was rebuffed even more
strongly.

From then on, it's clear that the two have no contact at all until they bump
into each other outside the hospital at the end of
"When Day Meets Night," because Abby says that Luka had called her first,
thinking she'd know where Carter was. Followed by the whole "You're going
aren't you," conversation... in which, again, it is quite clear that Carter
wants nothing more to do with Abby.

So yes... when Carter then shows up in her bedroom in the middle of the night,
she was probably pretty upset and confused, and probably right to ask for her
key back. As far as she was concerned, at 5:30 a.m. several weeks after Carter
walked out on her, they WERE no longer a couple, and he had no right to have a
key to her apartment. But, as the day progressed and she cooled off, and he
kept trying to apologize, she tried to give him another chance, which he
accepted. Resulting in a whole bunch of miscommunication (from both sides),
nothing being resolved, and finally, Carter running off again, leaving the
relationship still up in the air.

Post by Sharon too
Rewind back a year on this newsgroup and I would have been the one backing
her up. Whodathunk?

And fascinating how 10 people can watch the same characters and scenes and see
10 totally different things, hmm???

Naomi

[Sharon too]

Post by Naomi Pardue
Oh, I agree. I'm just a little puzzled as to why you seem to be expecting
perfection from Abby, while excusing Carter's mistakes and flaws.

I have never made Carter out to be blameless nor have have I expected Abby
to be perfect. I've said all along they both have communication issues.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Right. At that moment she had decided. But after talking with Susan and
thinking about it, (and, especially after hearing about Luka), she was ready to
give it another chance --

I'll have to give this a third viewing because I didn't get that Abby was
ready to give her relationship with Carter another chance.

but suddenly it seems that Carter -- who had been all

Post by Naomi Pardue
sweetness and apologies at 5 in the morning, is dumping her all over again.
Yeah, I'd be confused too.

Sweetness and apologies? He came in, sat down, and barely got a word out
before she demanded her key back.

Carter is a great enabler and *I* think not sure how to have a caring and
sharing relationship. He and Abby are both guilty of falling into convenient
relationships only to sit in wait for the inevitable train wreck so as to
blame each other. Neither are sweet angels in this respect. They have both
had sucky lives and yes, Abby was right in going after Eric when he was ill.
BUT, again, it's not what she did it's how she did it. She left when Carter
needed her most with an all assuming attitude that he understands or is in
the right frame of mind to understand. Oy - I could go on and on about my
take on her psyche but it really is non productive.

You're right, we all see things differently. I'm sure our own backgrounds
and experiences figure heavily into this as well, for which there is no
usenet explanation required ;-)

-Sharon

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Sharon too
I have never made Carter out to be blameless nor have have I expected Abby
to be perfect. I've said all along they both have communication issues.

Maybe. I get a bit confused with all the Abby-tacking that goes on here about
who said what. I guess you have been one of the more moderates here.

Post by Sharon too
because I didn't get that Abby was
ready to give her relationship with Carter another chance.

It's not entirely clear, of course, because there isn't heaps of dialogue.
(Since they AREN'T of course, communicating very well....) But she seemed to be
pretty open to Susan's suggestion in the gents' that flowers/candy/a new
transmission (didn't think Abby HAD a car...) would be sufficient, seemed
willing to talk with him, sought him out in the lounge when he was on the
phone, and then, her clear distress when he said he was leaving made it pretty
obvious that she still had some sort of feelings for him. (Even if only the
need for a definite closure of the relationship. Could it be maybe that she's
so angry *because* she loves him? That strong feelings reflect back on
themselves?)

Post by Sharon too
yes, Abby was right in going after Eric when he was ill.
BUT, again, it's not what she did it's how she did it. She left when Carter
needed her most with an all assuming attitude that he understands

But, it wasn't like she could wait. Eric needed her help THEN. He was sitting
in a diner. He was sick; off his meds. He had no money. Just how long was he
supposed to wait? Luka, OTOH, COULD wait. He wasn't going anywhere. I think it
may have been entirely fitting if Abby had thrown Carter's own line back at him
here... "Luka will *still be dead* tomorrow!"

Naomi

[A.M. Moriarty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Sharon too
I have never made Carter out to be blameless nor have have I expected Abby
to be perfect. I've said all along they both have communication issues.

Maybe. I get a bit confused with all the Abby-tacking that goes on here about
who said what. I guess you have been one of the more moderates here.

Post by Sharon too
because I didn't get that Abby was
ready to give her relationship with Carter another chance.

It's not entirely clear, of course, because there isn't heaps of dialogue.
(Since they AREN'T of course, communicating very well....) But she seemed to be
pretty open to Susan's suggestion in the gents' that flowers/candy/a new
transmission (didn't think Abby HAD a car...) would be sufficient, seemed
willing to talk with him, sought him out in the lounge when he was on the
phone, and then, her clear distress when he said he was leaving made it pretty
obvious that she still had some sort of feelings for him. (Even if only the
need for a definite closure of the relationship. Could it be maybe that she's
so angry *because* she loves him? That strong feelings reflect back on
themselves?)

Post by Sharon too
yes, Abby was right in going after Eric when he was ill.
BUT, again, it's not what she did it's how she did it. She left when Carter
needed her most with an all assuming attitude that he understands

But, it wasn't like she could wait. Eric needed her help THEN. He was sitting
in a diner. He was sick; off his meds. He had no money. Just how long was he
supposed to wait? Luka, OTOH, COULD wait. He wasn't going anywhere. I think it
may have been entirely fitting if Abby had thrown Carter's own line back at him
here... "Luka will *still be dead* tomorrow!"
Naomi

How about stopping the "he did, she did" arguments for bit and celebrate
that they are seperate. Some of you hate Carter on sight and he can do
nothing right, ever. While others can't stand Abby. How about these are
two flawed people who deserve to be out of a painful relationship. And we,
the audience, shouldn't have to watch it anymore, much less think about it.

[JC KW fan]

Post by A.M. Moriarty
And we,
the audience, shouldn't have to watch it anymore, much less think about

There are also many people out there including myself that enjoy their
relationship, warts and all, and hope they are able to patch things up in the
future. To us , their interaction is one of the reasons we still watch ER.

Brenda
ERForum : http://www.erforums.com/forum/index.php
Carby Board : http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcarby
Coffeeandpie: http://www.coffeeandpie.com/board/

[Karen]

Post by JC KW fan

Post by A.M. Moriarty
And we,
the audience, shouldn't have to watch it anymore, much less think about

There are also many people out there including myself that enjoy their
relationship, warts and all, and hope they are able to patch things up in the
future. To us , their interaction is one of the reasons we still watch ER.

And for plenty of others, it's why we keep a barf bag handy.


Karen E.

[JC KW fan]

Post by Karen
And for plenty of others, it's why we keep a barf bag handy.

That could be said for most if not all the couples on ER. In fact all the
couples on ER have had people who loved them, liked them, could care less
either way, disliked them, and hated them. I know I've disliked or been
disinterested in more relationships on ER than I have liked or love. There are
very few that I have loved. This is one of them .

Brenda

ERForum : http://www.erforums.com/forum/index.php
Carby Board : http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcarby
Coffeeandpie: http://www.coffeeandpie.com/board/

[Banty]

Post by A.M. Moriarty
How about stopping the "he did, she did" arguments for bit and celebrate
that they are seperate. Some of you hate Carter on sight and he can do
nothing right, ever. While others can't stand Abby. How about these are
two flawed people who deserve to be out of a painful relationship. And we,
the audience, shouldn't have to watch it anymore, much less think about it.

I'd go along with that!

And both with some therapy, formal or informal.

I'd love to see Carter be pursued by someone who is without so many
complications (he probably will need to have Pratt or Chuny or someone slap him
up sideways and say "this is a GOOD thing - a HAPPY person loves you!" when he
feels like it's not really intense enough to be love or some such nonsense).
And channel those save-the-world-and-fix-everybody impulses into setting up his
own clinic or something.

For Abby - frankly I'd like to see her get back to medical school and/or build
up other areas of her life while she finds a really good counselling match to
deal with the family/love relationship issues. She's good people with a lot to
offer, but with a couple of pieces missing.

It's pretty clear who I think is the most messed up :-)

But I don't know if such scenarios make for good drama. Mebbe the last few
eppys of the last season...

Banty

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by A.M. Moriarty
How about stopping the "he did, she did" arguments for bit and celebrate
that they are seperate.

While I am glad they are separate (it was a crappy relationship from the get go
and I don't know why TPTB threw them together), I would like them to split up
without the need to hurt each other so badly. I don't dislike either of them. A
more graceful ending would be entirely within character for them.

Naomi

[Sharon too]

Post by A.M. Moriarty
How about stopping the "he did, she did" arguments for bit and celebrate
that they are seperate. Some of you hate Carter on sight and he can do
nothing right, ever. While others can't stand Abby.

I'll buy that clue. In fact, just to make it easier on everyone here, I'll
volunteer to handle Carter AND Luka personally and spare Abby any more
drama.

;-)

-Sharon

[Kelley30]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Sharon too
With the brutallity and third world-ness still fresh in his mind, as well as
the imprint on his forehead from the barrel of the gun of the rebel, and
sleep deprivation, I'm not sure we should expect Carter to act or think
logically at this point.

Oh, I agree. I'm just a little puzzled as to why you seem to be expecting
perfection from Abby, while excusing Carter's mistakes and flaws.

Post by Sharon too
and is trying to figure out where her

Post by Naomi Pardue
relationship with Carter is going,

She is? I believe she directed where her relationship was going with him
when she welcomed him home with a "Give me my key back" Hallmark moment.

Right. At that moment she had decided. But after talking with Susan and
thinking about it, (and, especially after hearing about Luka), she was ready to
give it another chance -- but suddenly it seems that Carter -- who had been all
sweetness and apologies at 5 in the morning, is dumping her all over again.
Yeah, I'd be confused too.
Let's back up a little here and see what the relationship has been for the past
month or so.. (Previous to that it's been, over-all, good, with a few bumps in
the road, mostly related to Abby's drinking. [And, more specifically, to
*Carter's* inability to accept that he's fallen for a woman who is an
off-the-wagon if not-out-of-control alcoholic, and that, if he really loves
her, he's going to have to resist the need to fix her. [[A need he denies he
has, but very clearly DOES have.]]) Then...
Gamma dies. Abby rushes off to Iowa to get Eric. Carter is pissed. (Funny how
everyone crucified Abby for running off to get Eric -- who was alive and ill
and needed help, but thinks it's entirely ok for Carter to run off and get
Luka, who is (presumably) dead and beyond anyone's help.) Abby is very
apologetic, returns promptly, and, though we don't see it since it happens
between eppies, presumably comforts Carter in his grief, helps him with
the arrangements, and generally is supportive iin his time of need.
Eric again turns up to complicate matters and, left with an impossible
situation, Abby makes The Best Choice She Can At the Time (tm) a choice which
goes horribly wrong, causing embarressment for all. She, again, apologizes
profusely (and, again, here on the group, she was roundly criticized for
talking about HER feelings in her apology ["I feel like such a terrible
person"], but that is a commonly "approved" method of working out problems. You
are *supposed* to talk about your own feelings, rather than assuming what the
other person is feeling), but was, at that point, dumped by Carter. Another
attempt to apologize in the hospital later that day was rebuffed even more
strongly.
From then on, it's clear that the two have no contact at all until they bump
into each other outside the hospital at the end of
"When Day Meets Night," because Abby says that Luka had called her first,
thinking she'd know where Carter was. Followed by the whole "You're going
aren't you," conversation... in which, again, it is quite clear that Carter
wants nothing more to do with Abby.
So yes... when Carter then shows up in her bedroom in the middle of the night,
she was probably pretty upset and confused, and probably right to ask for her
key back. As far as she was concerned, at 5:30 a.m. several weeks after Carter
walked out on her, they WERE no longer a couple, and he had no right to have a
key to her apartment. But, as the day progressed and she cooled off, and he
kept trying to apologize, she tried to give him another chance, which he
accepted. Resulting in a whole bunch of miscommunication (from both sides),
nothing being resolved, and finally, Carter running off again, leaving the
relationship still up in the air.

Post by Sharon too
Rewind back a year on this newsgroup and I would have been the one backing
her up. Whodathunk?

And fascinating how 10 people can watch the same characters and scenes and see
10 totally different things, hmm???
Naomi

Well said Naomi...well said...

Kelley

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue
Gamma dies. Abby rushes off to Iowa to get Eric. Carter is pissed. (Funny how
everyone crucified Abby for running off to get Eric -- who was alive and ill
and needed help, but thinks it's entirely ok for Carter to run off and get
Luka, who is (presumably) dead and beyond anyone's help.)

This amazes me. Truly, you see the difference between the situations - When
Abby ran to Eric, John had just found out that the most important family member
to him had died. When John ran to Luka - Abby - well, what *is* it that would
lead you to compare these situations, other than her persistent neediness.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Abby is very
apologetic, returns promptly, and, though we don't see it since it happens
between eppies, presumably comforts Carter in his grief, helps him with
the arrangements, and generally is supportive iin his time of need.

She did? I don't remember that. She showed up at the funeral. Late. With
Eric. That's it. And doesn't seem to 'get' where her shortfall was other than
Embarrasing Her Boyfriend At A High Society Funeral.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Eric again turns up to complicate matters and, left with an impossible
situation, Abby makes The Best Choice She Can At the Time (tm) a choice which
goes horribly wrong, causing embarressment for all.

?? OK, folks tell me where I'm wrong, I could be, but IIRC she brought Eric
back with her, and the first time Carter sees her after leaving for Eric is at
the funeral.

Post by Naomi Pardue
She, again, apologizes
profusely (and, again, here on the group, she was roundly criticized for
talking about HER feelings in her apology ["I feel like such a terrible
person"], but that is a commonly "approved" method of working out problems. You
are *supposed* to talk about your own feelings, rather than assuming what the
other person is feeling), but was, at that point, dumped by Carter. Another
attempt to apologize in the hospital later that day was rebuffed even more
strongly.

It was not the time for HER problems.
He had just buried his Gamma.

Post by Naomi Pardue
From then on, it's clear that the two have no contact at all until they bump
into each other outside the hospital at the end of
"When Day Meets Night," because Abby says that Luka had called her first,
thinking she'd know where Carter was. Followed by the whole "You're going
aren't you," conversation... in which, again, it is quite clear that Carter
wants nothing more to do with Abby.
So yes... when Carter then shows up in her bedroom in the middle of the night,

Which was kinda dumb, but perhaps his Africa experience had radically
re-arranged his priorities.

Post by Naomi Pardue
she was probably pretty upset and confused, and probably right to ask for her
key back. As far as she was concerned, at 5:30 a.m. several weeks after Carter
walked out on her, they WERE no longer a couple, and he had no right to have a
key to her apartment. But, as the day progressed and she cooled off, and he
kept trying to apologize, she tried to give him another chance, which he
accepted. Resulting in a whole bunch of miscommunication (from both sides),
nothing being resolved, and finally, Carter running off again, leaving the
relationship still up in the air.

Clearly not a relationship going on. But neither breaking it off.

But, looking at what Abby's going through now (usual Abby stuff), and what
Carter's going through now (very recent and immediate grief and shock), I think
it's pretty clear who should be called up to be the strong person to do that.

Banty

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Naomi Pardue
(Funny how

Post by Naomi Pardue
everyone crucified Abby for running off to get Eric -- who was alive and ill
and needed help, but thinks it's entirely ok for Carter to run off and get
Luka, who is (presumably) dead and beyond anyone's help.)

This amazes me. Truly, you see the difference between the situations - When
Abby ran to Eric, John had just found out that the most important family member
to him had died.

And Eric, the most important family member to Abby, had just contacted her
(after being missing for several months) and told her that he needed her help.)
They were both in personal crises at the same time.

Post by Naomi Pardue
When John ran to Luka - Abby - well, what *is* it that would
lead you to compare these situations, other than her persistent neediness.

Oh... just the idea that maybe a word or two from John about why her was going
might be welcome... (I'm not saying that he shouldn't have gone. Just that he
might have graced her with more than just "I'll call you from Paris.")

Post by Naomi Pardue
though we don't see it since it happens

Post by Naomi Pardue
between eppies,

She did? I don't remember that. She showed up at the funeral.

BECAUSE we don't see it. The writers don't choose to show us the days between
the day of Gamma's death and the day of the funeral. There is no reason to
assume that Abby did not return from Iowa as she had promised the following
day, and then give John the love and support he needed. (Since Eric was, at
that point, in a program, getting treatment.)

Post by Naomi Pardue
It was not the time for HER problems.
He had just buried his Gamma.

Oh, I agree. But if she had said nothing, then everyone would have criticized
her for saying nothing... Right? (You weren't on the group at the time [at
least not as an active participant, but if you google, you will see that Abby
is a woman who can do no right, as far as most posters here are concerned.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
So yes... when Carter then shows up in her bedroom in the middle of the

night,
Which was kinda dumb, but perhaps his Africa experience had radically
re-arranged his priorities.

Right. He realized that he DID want to be with her. At that moment, Abby wasn't
ready to accept his apology, but, as I read her in the eppy, by later in the
day, she was ready to at least give him a chance.

Post by Naomi Pardue
But, looking at what Abby's going through now (usual Abby stuff), and what
Carter's going through now (very recent and immediate grief and shock), I think
it's pretty clear who should be called up to be the strong person to do that.

What? You don't think Abby is in grief and shock too? IMO, Abby has been closer
to Luka for longer than Carter has been. (Even ignoring their time as lovers,
they have been friends for several years. Carter and Luka had been no more than
work colleagues at best/rivals for Abby's affections at worst, until very
recently.)

Naomi

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
(Funny how

Post by Naomi Pardue
everyone crucified Abby for running off to get Eric -- who was alive and ill
and needed help, but thinks it's entirely ok for Carter to run off and get
Luka, who is (presumably) dead and beyond anyone's help.)

This amazes me. Truly, you see the difference between the situations - When
Abby ran to Eric, John had just found out that the most important family member
to him had died.

And Eric, the most important family member to Abby, had just contacted her
(after being missing for several months) and told her that he needed her help.)
They were both in personal crises at the same time.

It was a true personal dilemma. Although for Abby to risk Eric at the funeral
demonstrated that Carter's needs came after even more mundane needs of Eric's.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
When John ran to Luka - Abby - well, what *is* it that would
lead you to compare these situations, other than her persistent neediness.

Oh... just the idea that maybe a word or two from John about why her was going
might be welcome... (I'm not saying that he shouldn't have gone. Just that he
might have graced her with more than just "I'll call you from Paris.")

Post by Naomi Pardue
though we don't see it since it happens

Post by Naomi Pardue
between eppies,

She did? I don't remember that. She showed up at the funeral.

BECAUSE we don't see it. The writers don't choose to show us the days between
the day of Gamma's death and the day of the funeral. There is no reason to
assume that Abby did not return from Iowa as she had promised the following
day, and then give John the love and support he needed. (Since Eric was, at
that point, in a program, getting treatment.)

I didn't get that impression - that there was interverning interaction. Indeed
- I thought that was the explanation for Eric's presence - she didn't have a
chance to make any arrangement.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
It was not the time for HER problems.
He had just buried his Gamma.

Oh, I agree. But if she had said nothing, then everyone would have criticized
her for saying nothing... Right? (You weren't on the group at the time [at
least not as an active participant, but if you google, you will see that Abby
is a woman who can do no right, as far as most posters here are concerned.

I've been lurking on and off for about a year and a half. I dno't specifically
remember that discussion. What she needed to say was about Gamma and John.
Actually, she needed to stand by and be ready to listen, hold a hand, be at his
side, and be ready even *not* to be getting something for her to listen to if
that's what he needed.

I woudln't have necessarily expected her to say a lot. I dont' think
yammer=communication. But the lot she did say was about her. It shoudl have
been two sentences. Well, actually, it really shouldn't have happened. That's
the sort of incident that even a lifetime doesn't live down. When Carter is 80
years old reflecting on that awful time, it will be Abby's interference he'll
recall and resent, when he should be feeling some closure - that's why societies
have rituals like funerals. John Carter has lost that forever.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
So yes... when Carter then shows up in her bedroom in the middle of the

night,
Which was kinda dumb, but perhaps his Africa experience had radically
re-arranged his priorities.

Right. He realized that he DID want to be with her. At that moment, Abby wasn't
ready to accept his apology, but, as I read her in the eppy, by later in the
day, she was ready to at least give him a chance.

Since you're so anxious to suggest words for the Wonderful Carter to have said,
how about what Together Abby would say and do? Like get up and get coffee, ask
him to sit down at the table with her. I can understand why she wouldn't jump
up into his arms with passionate joy, I can even understand how an addicted
smoker would reach for the ciggie first, but she didn't have to slap him with
the key request either.

For that matter, when Carter snapped at her about her bringing up Luka later, a
Wonderful Abby might have said "OK! Allright! C'mon, John, when we're done with
work, how about a walk down at the lakefront. OK?"

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
But, looking at what Abby's going through now (usual Abby stuff), and what
Carter's going through now (very recent and immediate grief and shock), I think
it's pretty clear who should be called up to be the strong person to do that.

What? You don't think Abby is in grief and shock too? IMO, Abby has been closer
to Luka for longer than Carter has been. (Even ignoring their time as lovers,
they have been friends for several years. Carter and Luka had been no more than
work colleagues at best/rivals for Abby's affections at worst, until very
recently.)

Up to the point Abby learned the news, it was all about Abby. That's the period
of time I'm talking about.

And I agree with Sharon - there's a bond from having been through the war
experience in Africa which forms and immediate and intense bond.

Banty

[Karen]

Post by Naomi Pardue
BECAUSE we don't see it. The writers don't choose to show us the days between
the day of Gamma's death and the day of the funeral. There is no reason to
assume that Abby did not return from Iowa as she had promised the following
day, and then give John the love and support he needed. (Since Eric was, at
that point, in a program, getting treatment.)

Neither is there reason to presume she _did_. Because we didn't see it.
It would have been far more in character for her to be completely
involved with getting Eric taken care of.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
So yes... when Carter then shows up in her bedroom in the middle of the

night,
Which was kinda dumb, but perhaps his Africa experience had radically
re-arranged his priorities.

I don't know. He was trying to reassure himself that the one thing he
had left was still there.

Post by Naomi Pardue
What? You don't think Abby is in grief and shock too? IMO, Abby has been closer
to Luka for longer than Carter has been. (Even ignoring their time as lovers,
they have been friends for several years. Carter and Luka had been no more than
work colleagues at best/rivals for Abby's affections at worst, until very
recently.)

But Abby had more of a relationship with Carter while she was dating
Luka (treating him as a "girlfriend") than she had had with Luka while
she was with Carter. Carter is far more constant in her life.

Karen E.

[Banty]

Post by Karen

Post by Naomi Pardue
BECAUSE we don't see it. The writers don't choose to show us the days between
the day of Gamma's death and the day of the funeral. There is no reason to
assume that Abby did not return from Iowa as she had promised the following
day, and then give John the love and support he needed. (Since Eric was, at
that point, in a program, getting treatment.)

Neither is there reason to presume she _did_. Because we didn't see it.
It would have been far more in character for her to be completely
involved with getting Eric taken care of.

Absolutely. And, as I recall, the reason why she tried to hide away Eric at the
funeral was because she just got back to town.

Banty

[Banty]

Post by Banty

Post by Karen

Post by Naomi Pardue
BECAUSE we don't see it. The writers don't choose to show us the days between
the day of Gamma's death and the day of the funeral. There is no reason to
assume that Abby did not return from Iowa as she had promised the following
day, and then give John the love and support he needed. (Since Eric was, at
that point, in a program, getting treatment.)

Neither is there reason to presume she _did_. Because we didn't see it.
It would have been far more in character for her to be completely
involved with getting Eric taken care of.

Absolutely. And, as I recall, the reason why she tried to hide away Eric at the
funeral was because she just got back to town.
Banty

Come to think of it, weren't there some rather pointedly-poignant scenes of John
Carter alone in the big family house before Gamma's funeral?

Banty

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Banty
Absolutely. And, as I recall, the reason why she tried to hide away Eric at the
funeral was because she just got back to town.

No. Eric had been in a program. He had 'escaped' and broken into Abby's
apartment, after going off his meds again. She criticized him, telling him that
it was a voluntary program, which he could leave any time he wanted, and that
he didn't have to break in to her apartment, since she was home so he could
just ring the doorbell.
She had to hide him at the funeral because SHE had to go and she had no place
she could leave Eric safely. (Since he was off his meds she couldn't safely
leave him alone in her apartment.)

Naomi

[Sharon too]

Post by Naomi Pardue
She had to hide him at the funeral because SHE had to go and she had no place
she could leave Eric safely. (Since he was off his meds she couldn't safely
leave him alone in her apartment.)

Don't want to re-hash what we discussed when this first aired, but Abby made
a poor decision. She should have forgone the funeral and stayed at home with
Eric. I'm sure Carter would have understood this choice and probably wished
she had done this after he fell into Gamma's hole at the cemetery.

-Sharon

[Ellen K Hursh]

Post by Sharon too

Post by Naomi Pardue
She had to hide him at the funeral because SHE had to go and she had no
place she could leave Eric safely. (Since he was off his meds she
couldn't safely leave him alone in her apartment.)

Don't want to re-hash what we discussed when this first aired, but Abby
made a poor decision. She should have forgone the funeral and stayed at
home with Eric. I'm sure Carter would have understood this choice and
probably wished she had done this after he fell into Gamma's hole at the
cemetery.

Though I'm still not convinced that Gamma wasn't laughing her ectoplasmic
ass off about it, in the afterlife. ("Bwah! That wasn't exactly how I
expected my funeral to be unforgettable, but it'll do!")

[Sharon too]

Post by Banty
This amazes me. Truly, you see the difference between the situations - When
Abby ran to Eric, John had just found out that the most important family member
to him had died. When John ran to Luka - Abby - well, what *is* it that would
lead you to compare these situations, other than her persistent neediness.

Good point. Abby is defended for going off to retrieve her brother who in
the past has refused her help. But when Carter goes off to get Luka all of
the sudden he's wrong because *he ain't gong to get any deader"??!!

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Sharon too
Good point. Abby is defended for going off to retrieve her brother who in
the past has refused her help.

But now he's asking for her help. Should she have refused to help him because
his illness had not let him ask for help before?

Post by Sharon too
But when Carter goes off to get Luka all of
the sudden he's wrong because *he ain't gong to get any deader"??!!

I didn't say Carter was "wrong" for GOING. (A bit hard to understand, IMO, but
not wrong.) I do think he was wrong for not making an effort to try and
explain to Abby why he needed to go. Look at their conversations. Look
especially at the conversation in the lounge, but actually most of the
converstaions throughout the eppy. Abby asks questions -- Carter evades them.
Over and over again.
Abby: "What are you doing?"
Carter: "There's a twelve o clock flight to Paris. I can connect to Kishasa
with a 4 hour layover."
Abby: "You're going back? Why?
Carter: I left him there.
Abby: Left him where?
Carter: At the clinic in Matenda. I should have stayed.
(And, the whole time, not looking at her even once.)

Literal answers, to her specific questions, sure.(well, sometimes anyway.) But
not what Abby was really asking. What she was ASKING was "Why do you have to
put yourself into danger again when you've just come home? Why do I have to
risk losing another person I love(d) and care(d) about? Why are you slamming
the door in my face after you've asked me to open it again?" All perfectly
valid questions. And questions that deserved an answer, however brief.

In another post you talked about how the way we view things depends a lot on
our experiences and general life views. That's true. I'm a very practical kind
of person. And yeah -- you can help the sick, you can work through
relationships, whether to salvage them or to close them with the least pain
possible to all involved. But the dead are already dead. All we can do is
mourn them. (And whatever WE do, it makes no difference to them, we do it only
for ourselves.)

Naomi

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Sharon too
Good point. Abby is defended for going off to retrieve her brother who in
the past has refused her help.

But now he's asking for her help. Should she have refused to help him because
his illness had not let him ask for help before?

Post by Sharon too
But when Carter goes off to get Luka all of
the sudden he's wrong because *he ain't gong to get any deader"??!!

I didn't say Carter was "wrong" for GOING. (A bit hard to understand, IMO, but
not wrong.) I do think he was wrong for not making an effort to try and
explain to Abby why he needed to go. Look at their conversations. Look
especially at the conversation in the lounge, but actually most of the
converstaions throughout the eppy. Abby asks questions -- Carter evades them.
Over and over again.
Abby: "What are you doing?"
Carter: "There's a twelve o clock flight to Paris. I can connect to Kishasa
with a 4 hour layover."
Abby: "You're going back? Why?
Carter: I left him there.
Abby: Left him where?
Carter: At the clinic in Matenda. I should have stayed.
(And, the whole time, not looking at her even once.)
Literal answers, to her specific questions, sure.(well, sometimes anyway.) But
not what Abby was really asking. What she was ASKING was "Why do you have to
put yourself into danger again when you've just come home? Why do I have to
risk losing another person I love(d) and care(d) about? Why are you slamming
the door in my face after you've asked me to open it again?" All perfectly
valid questions. And questions that deserved an answer, however brief.

Yeah - I know - that's what she was really asking. All about Abby. All the
about the relationship she herself had put on ice. Gees - at a time like that.
Not even about Luka! Carter was focussed on Luka, on getting the medicine
(thinking about how it was in Africa), the contingencies and arrangements,
feeling his own feelings. That's a lot.

Yeah - there was not much room for Abby. The one who had kicked him out rather
definitively, and had rebuffed his earlier communications. I could perfectly
understand and it was perfectly realistic for him to just go the way he did.

Post by Naomi Pardue
In another post you talked about how the way we view things depends a lot on
our experiences and general life views. That's true. I'm a very practical kind
of person. And yeah -- you can help the sick, you can work through
relationships, whether to salvage them or to close them with the least pain
possible to all involved. But the dead are already dead. All we can do is
mourn them. (And whatever WE do, it makes no difference to them, we do it only
for ourselves.)

But usually people dont' have to worry about explaining the next eppy's drama
:-)

But really, a loved one's physical body is a very important thing - soldiers try
to bring their dead out even endangering themselves, and Luka would probably rot
given all chaos.

I was a little surprised about it, but Abby has no standing about it IMO.

Banty

[Joranger]

Post by Banty
All about Abby. All the
about the relationship she herself had put on ice.

<snip to>

Post by Banty

Post by Banty
Yeah - there was not much room for Abby. The one who had kicked him out rather
definitively, and had rebuffed his earlier >>communications.

See, this is what I don't understand. How did *Abby* put the relationship on
ice? *Carter* was the one who left town with hardly a word. He never tried to
contact her while he was away--is it any wonder Abby felt the relationship was
over? Sure, there were plenty of problems leading up to Carter's departure,
and both of them are to blame for the state of their relationship, but Carter
is the one who made the first move; he's the one who basically ran away (not
without reason, mind you) rather than staying and facing their problems. Then
he returned--without bothering to call first--and expected Abby to be excited
to see him, even though they had never talked at all, let alone talked about
where they stood in their relationship. As is typical with ER, both parties
share the blame in this situation.

jo

[Karen]

Post by Joranger

Post by Banty
All about Abby. All the
about the relationship she herself had put on ice.

<snip to>

Post by Banty

Post by Banty
Yeah - there was not much room for Abby. The one who had kicked him out rather
definitively, and had rebuffed his earlier >>communications.

See, this is what I don't understand. How did *Abby* put the relationship on
ice? *Carter* was the one who left town with hardly a word. He never tried to
contact her while he was away--is it any wonder Abby felt the relationship was
over? Sure, there were plenty of problems leading up to Carter's departure,
and both of them are to blame for the state of their relationship, but Carter
is the one who made the first move; he's the one who basically ran away (not
without reason, mind you) rather than staying and facing their problems. Then
he returned--without bothering to call first--and expected Abby to be excited
to see him, even though they had never talked at all, let alone talked about
where they stood in their relationship. As is typical with ER, both parties
share the blame in this situation.
jo

To my mind, Abby set up the situation. Gamma's death was fairly
unexpected. The Eric drama had been ongoing. To Carter, waht was
happening with Eric wasn't as sudden as what happened with Gamma. I
imagine he couldn't understand why Abby couldn't or wouldn't take a
little time from her ongoing (interminable) family stuff to offer him
support. He probably did want to hurt her by leaving without saying
anything but I think he also wanted to avoid the fight he knew his
choice to go to Africa would precipitate. He knew he was going to go and
nothing Abby could say would stop him. Yet he also knew that if he told
her he'd be setting the stage for a huge argument. As far as his not
contacting her while he was gone? Well how the dickens was he supposed
to do _that_? Abby can take that to mean whatever she wants but
ultimately it was because he couldn't.
Both parties do share blame here, but not equal blame in my book.

Karen E.

[Joranger]

Post by Joranger
Sure, there were plenty of problems leading up to Carter's departure,

Post by Joranger
and both of them are to blame for the state of their relationship, but

Carter

Post by Joranger
is the one who made the first move; he's the one who

basically ran away (not

Post by Joranger
without reason, mind you) rather than staying and facing their problems.

To my mind, Abby set up the situation. Gamma's death was fairly
unexpected. The Eric drama had been ongoing. To Carter, waht was
happening with Eric wasn't as sudden as what happened with Gamma. I
imagine he couldn't understand why Abby couldn't or wouldn't take a
ittle time from her ongoing (interminable) family stuff to offer him
support

I agree that Abby had most of the problems, but Carter had problems too--and he
didn't really try to talk anything out with Abby.

Post by Joranger
He probably did want to hurt her by leaving without saying
anything but I think he also wanted to avoid the fight he knew his
choice to go to Africa would precipitate. He knew he was go
and
nothing Abby could say would stop him. Yet he also knew that if he told
her he'd be setting the stage for a huge argument.

Instead he was going to sneak off without telling her so he wouldn't have to
confront any of their issues. I understand that Carter needed time to to deal
with everything, but that wasn't the best way to handle leaving. "It isn't
Rio, but it isn't here." Sends a pretty clear message-- anywhere is better
than Chicago and Abby.

Post by Joranger
As far as his not
contacting her while he was gone? Well how the dickens was he supposed
to do _that_? Abby can take that to >mean whatever she wants but
ultimately it was because he couldn't.

Actually, he could. It wasn't impossible to make a call from Kisangani or
Kinshasa, and it was certainly very easy to make a call during his delay in
London, or even from the plane. No need for a long, drawn out conversation, a
simple, "I'm on my way home" would have been enough to give Abby a head's up.
As it was, he's lucky she didn't keep a loaded gun under her pillow (now that
would have been a unique way to write Carter off the show!)

Post by Joranger
Both parties do share blame here, but not equal blame in my book.

Abby certainly has more dramatic issues, but Carter has some very deep-seated
problems too, specifically with his whole family dynamic. Neither of them have
handled things well at all, and I'm glad to see them go their seperate ways.
Maybe now they'll both heal a bit and be able to have more stable, and happier,
lives.

Jo

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Karen
To my mind, Abby set up the situation. Gamma's death was fairly
unexpected. The Eric drama had been ongoing.

True, but Eric had been missing for months when he called. It wasn't as if this
was something she could have waited to have handled, or, conversely, could have
handled the day before and just chose for some reason to deal with the day of
Gamma's death.

Post by Karen
To Carter, waht was
happening with Eric wasn't as sudden as what happened with Gamma.

Right. To Carter. Not to Abby.
OTOH, you could argue that Gamma was old and had a chronic illness
(Shy-Drager), so her death wasn't unexpected.
They each had a personal crisis that each had to deal with.

Post by Karen
As far as his not
contacting her while he was gone? Well how the dickens was he supposed
to do _that_?

There seemed to be phones there. Luka was able to call Abby, and then Carter.
There is also mail service. (Albeit rather poor mail service, from what I
understand.)

(I also speculated in another post that he probably spent a few days/weeks in
Europe before heading home. He made no attempt to contact her from there
either.)

Naomi

[Sharon]

Post by Naomi Pardue
There seemed to be phones there. Luka was able to call Abby, and then Carter.
There is also mail service. (Albeit rather poor mail service, from what I
understand.)
(I also speculated in another post that he probably spent a few days/weeks in
Europe before heading home. He made no attempt to contact her from there
either.)
Naomi

During the abbreviated bedroom conversation, Carter did tell Abby he had
come directly from the airport and she remarked that it was 5:30 AM. He
then told her about the delay in London. Though it was oblique, I thought
it sounded like she did know he was returning, but thought he had gotten
back earlier and decided not to call her or come to the apartment, rather
than that she had no idea he was returning. Granted, he should have made
some sort of specific arrangement to see her rather than just dropping by,
but I did get the idea that she had some inkling that he was on his way back
to Chicago, which is probably why she was so ready with the key request
despite having just been awakened.

Doc Sharon

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Sharon
During the abbreviated bedroom conversation, Carter did tell Abby he had
come directly from the airport and she remarked that it was 5:30 AM. He
then told her about the delay in London. Though it was oblique, I thought
it sounded like she did know he was returning, but thought he had gotten
back earlier and decided not to call her or come to the apartment, rather
than that she had no idea he was returning.

I interepreted it to mean that overseas flights usually don't land at O'Hare in
the wee hours of the morning... (There are flights coming in before midnight,
and red-eyes that land around 6ish, but not much scheduled to land around 2 or
3.) (And indeed, handy-dandy Expedia [searching by several different airlines,
incluiding Air France and British Air from London to ORD], turns up nothing
landing at O'Hare after around 9 p.m.).

Post by Sharon
I did get the idea that she had some inkling that he was on his way back
to Chicago, which is probably why she was so ready with the key request
despite having just been awakened.

I saw it more of an "Ok.... you had walked out on me... which I interpreted as
YOU breaking up with ME ... then you let yourself into my apartment in the
middle of the night. Uhh... I don't think I trust you to have a key to my
apartment anymore."

Naomi

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Banty
Yeah - I know - that's what she was really asking. All about Abby.
Gees - at a time like that.
Not even about Luka! Carter was focussed on Luka, on getting the medicine
(thinking about how it was in Africa), the contingencies and arrangements,
feeling his own feelings.

See... that's where I'm so puzzled here. John is thinking about John. (And
Luka.. which is, given my discussion later in my post about the dead means,by
extension, John is *still* thinking about John. Luka is no longer is a
position to worry about Luka.) (Of course, this is all given the info we have
to date. We know the truth is different.) *John* needs, for his own comfort (as
you correct note later in your post) to get Luka's body ASAP.


So why is it always ok for John to be focused on John, but inexcuseable for
Abby to be focused on Abby. Sure, I agree that she is being selfish. But I
think that's *OK.* It's also ok for John to be selfish, but given that he is
the active partner here, it is contingent on him to make the effort to be a
little less selfish at this moment. (He CAN do something about the situation.
She can't. He can make the effort to explain. She can't understand unless he
does, unless you expect her to read his mind. Remember, we saw "Kisangani." We
KNOW what happened to them in Africa. She doesn't have a clue.)



Naomi

Post by Banty
But really, a loved one's physical body is a very important thing - soldiers try
to bring their dead out even endangering themselves, and Luka would probably rot
given all chaos.

Though, again, as near as we can tell, Carter has absolutely no idea what has
happened. He doesn't know how or where Luka was supposed to have died, where
the body is, or anything else. Why not try to get some info by phone first
rather than flying off half-assed? A day or two will really NOT make a huge
difference. (None at all to Luka, but maybe a lot to Abby.)

Naomi

[Sharon]

Post by Naomi Pardue
I didn't say Carter was "wrong" for GOING. (A bit hard to understand, IMO, but
not wrong.) I do think he was wrong for not making an effort to try and
explain to Abby why he needed to go. Look at their conversations. Look
especially at the conversation in the lounge, but actually most of the
converstaions throughout the eppy. Abby asks questions -- Carter evades them.
Over and over again.
Abby: "What are you doing?"
Carter: "There's a twelve o clock flight to Paris. I can connect to Kishasa
with a 4 hour layover."
Abby: "You're going back? Why?
Carter: I left him there.
Abby: Left him where?
Carter: At the clinic in Matenda. I should have stayed.
(And, the whole time, not looking at her even once.)

Remember, too, Carter had just had a conversation with Abby about his
experiences in Africa and she had accused him of not communicating with her.
Maybe he figured she was never going to understand what he was saying
anyway, they are just not on the same wavelength about the Congo or anything
else right now. Maybe he didn't want to risk having her tell him once again
that they never talk and she doesn't know what he's saying. Remarks like
those don't tend to lead to better communication between couples. I can
understand why he was frustrated with her, he'd tried to talk to her twice
that day already and been shot down both times.

Doc Sharon

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Naomi Pardue
I didn't say Carter was "wrong" for GOING. (A bit hard to understand, IMO,

but

Post by Naomi Pardue
not wrong.) I do think he was wrong for not making an effort to try and
explain to Abby why he needed to go. Look at their conversations. Look
especially at the conversation in the lounge, but actually most of the
converstaions throughout the eppy. Abby asks questions -- Carter evades

them.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Over and over again.
Abby: "What are you doing?"
Carter: "There's a twelve o clock flight to Paris. I can connect to

Kishasa

Post by Naomi Pardue
with a 4 hour layover."
Abby: "You're going back? Why?
Carter: I left him there.
Abby: Left him where?
Carter: At the clinic in Matenda. I should have stayed.
(And, the whole time, not looking at her even once.)

Remember, too, Carter had just had a conversation with Abby about his
experiences in Africa and she had accused him of not communicating with her.
Maybe he figured she was never going to understand what he was saying
anyway, they are just not on the same wavelength about the Congo or anything
else right now. Maybe he didn't want to risk having her tell him once again
that they never talk and she doesn't know what he's saying. Remarks like
those don't tend to lead to better communication between couples. I can
understand why he was frustrated with her, he'd tried to talk to her twice
that day already and been shot down both times.
Doc Sharon

To my mind, if Abby is clued in at all, he fairly well communicated why he was
going. "I left him there" - that's the world-saving Carter talking - he feels
guilty and connected to the death, he feels he should have been at Luka's side.
He's given quite a lot of info about his motivation and emotional state. He
gave his destination, the plane connections in a way they can be figured out.

I still wonder *what* folks here would have him say in order to be deemed to be
'communicating'. He communicated. It wasn't wordy and florid. A lot of
people, men somewhat more, aren't wordy and florid. He communicated. And -
yes, in the face of having been shot down very recently for 'not communicating'.
And his mind was most understandably elsewhere, and he was in a hurry.

It's not communicating Abby wants - it's strokes and validation. "*You're*
important I'm gonna spill my emotions for *you* I'll call *you* every day..."
while holding her hand and looking into *her* eyes. Even if they were together,
Carter is dealing with an urgency which *isn't* *about* *her*.

Banty

[JC KW fan]

The bottomline to me is that both Carter/Abby care about each other deeply,
but both have hurt each other as a result of their insecurities/events with
their families that occurred at the same time. Neither one at the present time
despite their feelings for each other is really able to look past their own
hurt feelings. Neither one is dealing with things correctly. I think in the
furture after they experience some growth and deal with their issues , they
will be able to. While Carby may be on the outs right now, they are what keep
me interested in ER the most. I really do think that TPTB needed to set up a
scenerio that would realistacally have Carter not around for 5 episode, but
they also plan on having Carter/Abby both indivudually start figuring out who
they are, what they want and start dealing with their issues. Noah has alluded
to this in several interviews. Once they do that, I think they will find their
way back to each other and have a much stronger relationship. That's my take on
it.

Brenda
ERForum : http://www.erforums.com/forum/index.php
Carby Board : http://pub48.ezboard.com/bcarby
Coffeeandpie: http://www.coffeeandpie.com/board/

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by doucar4ever
Then when he decides to
goes back to find Luka, she doesn't want him to go.

Well... it isn't like he actually explained to her WHY he is going. It was just
"There's a 12 o clock flight to Paris and I can connect to Kinshasa!" And when
she tried to get him to explain WHY he was going back to get Luka, he just kept
stuffing medical supplies in a duffle bag and ignoring her. (Maybe because HE
didn't really know why he was going yet?)

Maybe because he's an ex-boyfriend who has just turned in his key and has had
his stuff returned, and doens't owe her a special explanation.

Banty

[Sharon]

Post by Banty
Maybe because he's an ex-boyfriend who has just turned in his key and has had
his stuff returned, and doens't owe her a special explanation.
Banty

Bingo! She had let her thoughts be known to him already with the key and the
note at the bottom of the plastic bag, not to mention the pissy way she was
acting in the trauma. I don't think she had any right to stick her nose in any
of his business. She's the one that cut the cord and he just kept walking.
Glad he got wise.

I also think that Carter was so rattled by the news about Luka that all he
could think about was getting back to the last place he saw Luka and the others
that he formed a lasting bond with via trial by fire. He surely knew that
there would be a greater feeling of loss among those comrades than what it was
in Chicago. The people that he had spent those couple of weeks with could
understand his feelings far better than anyone else in Chicago could.

And yes, for those that just don't understand how anyone can see that Abby
isn't the greatest thing since toilet paper, I will always think that Abby is
the devil incarnate. I even saw her horns sticking up through her hair last
night.

Sharon S.

[Ellen Hursh]

Post by Sharon
And yes, for those that just don't understand how anyone can see that Abby
isn't the greatest thing since toilet paper, I will always think that Abby is
the devil incarnate. I even saw her horns sticking up through her hair last
night.

Heh... and here I thought that was just bed-head. :-P

[Kelley30]

Post by Sharon

Post by Banty
Maybe because he's an ex-boyfriend who has just turned in his key and has had
his stuff returned, and doens't owe her a special explanation.
Banty

Bingo! She had let her thoughts be known to him already with the key and the
note at the bottom of the plastic bag, not to mention the pissy way she was
acting in the trauma. I don't think she had any right to stick her nose in any
of his business. She's the one that cut the cord and he just kept walking.
Glad he got wise.
I also think that Carter was so rattled by the news about Luka that all he
could think about was getting back to the last place he saw Luka and the others
that he formed a lasting bond with via trial by fire. He surely knew that
there would be a greater feeling of loss among those comrades than what it was
in Chicago. The people that he had spent those couple of weeks with could
understand his feelings far better than anyone else in Chicago could.
And yes, for those that just don't understand how anyone can see that Abby
isn't the greatest thing since toilet paper, I will always think that Abby is
the devil incarnate. I even saw her horns sticking up through her hair last
night.
Sharon S.

She was acting pissy in the trauma? Yes she was but So was he! He
wouldn't even look at the EKG! And how about the cold heartless way
he told that HIV man he now had AIDS..."I have good news and bad news"
what was that? Abby was acting badly but what about Carter? Oh I
forgot he just got back from hell...well perhaps he should have taken
some time off to deal with things and stop taking his shit out on
everyone else...isn't that what everyone says about Abby?

Abby was no angel in this episode but she was not all at fault either.

And yes, I think Carter is mainly at fault in this relationship, and
he is a shallow spoiled little shit, which is why he has never HAD a
relationship. And no I don't think Abby is blameless I think that
like in real life they both are at fault for the problems in this
relationship...


Kelley

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Kelley30
Oh I
forgot he just got back from hell...well perhaps he should have taken
some time off to deal with things

Actually, this brings up an interesting question which I hope will be resolved
in the next eppy. The timing seems very off here. At the end of "Kisangani",
we see Carter leaving the Matenda clinic and, presumably, returning to
Kisangani and going directly home again. He arrives home at 5:30 a.m.,
apparently just a day or two later, and, that same afternoon, the call comes
about Luka. Yet...

*
*
*
Obligatory spoiler space

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
according to what we've seen in the spoilers, quite a lot happens to Luka in
the intervening time. If we are to assume, for example, that Carter spent some
time at the Kisangani hospital before returning home, and Luka had become ill/
the fighting had gotten worse, surely Luka or Patrque would have radioed to
Angelique and they would have known about it before Carter left.
So are we to assume, perhaps, that Carter spent a week or so decompressing in
London before heading home again? (Would also make sense, since, so far as I
know, there are no flights directly from Kinshasa to the U.S. via London -- I
think the only airlines are via Paris and maybe Brussels, [yeah, a quick
Expedia check turned up only an Air France flight to Kinshasa] and he said they
were delayed in London), and the comparatively extensive construction work that
had been done on the ER AND the fact that Gallant has suddenly graduated,
putting us from probably mid/late-spring (characters are wearing coats in
"Foreign Affairs" and "When Day Meets Night") to early summer by this eppy.

Naomi

[Sharon]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Kelley30
Oh I
forgot he just got back from hell...well perhaps he should have taken
some time off to deal with things

*
*
*
Obligatory spoiler space
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
according to what we've seen in the spoilers, quite a lot happens to Luka in
the intervening time. If we are to assume, for example, that Carter spent some
time at the Kisangani hospital before returning home, and Luka had become ill/
the fighting had gotten worse, surely Luka or Patrque would have radioed to
Angelique and they would have known about it before Carter left.

As I recall, according to the sides, Luka and the rest of the gang at the
clinic are forced to flee in a big hurry when the rebels arrive. When they
return to the clinic, their radio is gone or destroyed, so they're not able
to notify anyone at Kisangani. Chances are, the road to the clinic is also
blocked by the rebels, so no one can go there to find out what's going on
for a while. Carter could've been back at Kisangani for days or even a week
without Luka returning, it sounded like it was a pretty common occurence
since Angelique was rather casual about it when Luka hadn't returned as
expected at the beginning of the eppy.

Post by Naomi Pardue
So are we to assume, perhaps, that Carter spent a week or so decompressing in
London before heading home again? (Would also make sense, since, so far as I
know, there are no flights directly from Kinshasa to the U.S. via London -- I
think the only airlines are via Paris and maybe Brussels, [yeah, a quick
Expedia check turned up only an Air France flight to Kinshasa] and he said they
were delayed in London), and the comparatively extensive construction work that
had been done on the ER AND the fact that Gallant has suddenly graduated,
putting us from probably mid/late-spring (characters are wearing coats in
"Foreign Affairs" and "When Day Meets Night") to early summer by this eppy.
Naomi

Since "When Night Meets Day" occurred on Pratt's last day of internship, it
should've been the end of June, meaning we'd skipped forward someplace
around the time of Gamma's funeral, but there was no onscreen mention of it.

Doc Sharon

[Sharon S.]

Post by Kelley30
And yes, I think Carter is mainly at fault in this relationship, and
he is a shallow spoiled little shit, which is why he has never HAD a
relationship.

To each his own, Kelley. You have your right to express yourself just as I do.
We will never agree on Abby's sweet self just as we will never agree on what
an a** Carter is supposed to be.

I'd be most happy to see Abby leave town and never come back. I'm sure you'd
prefer the same for Carter and that's your right.

But I do detest the character of Abby Lockhart and nothing will ever change my
mind on that.

Best wishes to you and Abby.

Sharon S.

[Kelley30]

Post by Sharon S.

Post by Kelley30
And yes, I think Carter is mainly at fault in this relationship, and
he is a shallow spoiled little shit, which is why he has never HAD a
relationship.

To each his own, Kelley. You have your right to express yourself just as I do.
We will never agree on Abby's sweet self just as we will never agree on what
an a** Carter is supposed to be.
I'd be most happy to see Abby leave town and never come back. I'm sure you'd
prefer the same for Carter and that's your right.
But I do detest the character of Abby Lockhart and nothing will ever change my
mind on that.
Best wishes to you and Abby.
Sharon S.

Hmmm...never? What if she saved a house full of kids if the house
were on fire? What if she found a cure for cancer or AIDS? Never is
a long long time...

Like you said everyone has the right to have their opinion, just as
you have the right to blame Abby for everything and Carter for
nothing...I suppose. I like to think that they both screwed up...but
yes I think that Carter is mainly at fault because he started this
mess in the first place.

Hey I hope Carter stays in Africa...so to each her own right?

Best wishes to you and St. Carter...

Kelley

[Sharon S.]

Post by Kelley30
Hmmm...never? What if she saved a house full of kids if the house
were on fire? What if she found a cure for cancer or AIDS? Never is
a long long time...

Yep, wouldn't mean squat to me.

Post by Kelley30
Like you said everyone has the right to have their opinion, just as
you have the right to blame Abby for everything and Carter for
nothing...I suppose. I like to think that they both screwed up...but
yes I think that Carter is mainly at fault because he started this
mess in the first place.
Hey I hope Carter stays in Africa...so to each her own right?

Whatever trips your trigger.

Post by Kelley30
Best wishes to you and St. Carter...
Kelley

I didn't call your gal anything but her name, didn't add any adjectives or
titles to it. Since you called Carter St. Carter, does this mean I can call
that woman whatever I wish? After all, it looks like some people are trying to
put us all back in grammar school.

I'm not hear to argue with anyone over what a b**** I think that Abby is.
Everyone has a brain and can use it to think whatever they want. Trying to
piss someone off with snarky posts ain't worth it. There are far more
important things going on right now than defending myself for my opinion of
Abby.

Sharon S.

[Kelley30]

Post by Sharon S.

Post by Kelley30
Hmmm...never? What if she saved a house full of kids if the house
were on fire? What if she found a cure for cancer or AIDS? Never is
a long long time...

Yep, wouldn't mean squat to me.

Okay cool...good to know...just so I know where you are coming from...

Post by Sharon S.

Post by Kelley30
Like you said everyone has the right to have their opinion, just as
you have the right to blame Abby for everything and Carter for
nothing...I suppose. I like to think that they both screwed up...but
yes I think that Carter is mainly at fault because he started this
mess in the first place.
Hey I hope Carter stays in Africa...so to each her own right?

Whatever trips your trigger.

That trips mine I guess...

Post by Sharon S.

Post by Kelley30
Best wishes to you and St. Carter...
Kelley

I didn't call your gal anything but her name, didn't add any adjectives or
titles to it. Since you called Carter St. Carter, does this mean I can call
that woman whatever I wish? After all, it looks like some people are trying to
put us all back in grammar school.
I'm not hear to argue with anyone over what a b**** I think that Abby is.
Everyone has a brain and can use it to think whatever they want. Trying to
piss someone off with snarky posts ain't worth it. There are far more
important things going on right now than defending myself for my opinion of
Abby.
Sharon S.

Check out the title of the topic Sharon...why is Abby such a
bitch...everyone here on this topic is sooooo quick to trash the
character...I make a off the hand comment and call him St. Carter
because everyone seems to think he has done no wrong and you get soooo
angry with me.-it was a joke (ha ha funny funny). Why is that Sharon?
She's a make believe person character Sharon call her whatever you
what...slut, whore, bitch, gold digger, selfish, cold hearted
whatever...basically everyone has already anyway. You have every
right to your opinion and I respect that. Was I mistaken and this is
the "Abby is a bitch and you can only post here if you agree with it
thread" because if it is I will stop posting on this thread but I have
every right mine too. Hell I thought everyone was debating this great
issue with great restraint and fun. But I guess you only want to hear
other people say that Abby is a bith I guess that is cool- you have a
need for people to hate this character sorry I don't. I was just
curious as to whether Abby could ever do anything to change your
opinion of her...you said no which tells me something. No need to be
so hostile to me.

Kelley

[Sharon S.]

Post by Kelley30
I was just
curious as to whether Abby could ever do anything to change your
opinion of her...you said no which tells me something. No need to be
so hostile to me.
Kelley

LOL! What a crock! I was nowhere near being hostile. I stated a fact and
there was nothing hostile about it. I could care less what others think about
the character. Love her, hate her, think she's a saint, I don't care. My
"needs" have nothing whatsoever to with anyone hating a fictional character.
I'm done with this crap thread. Don't worry about another reply from me to
your Abby posts. Sheesh...

Sharon S.

[Kelley30]

Post by Sharon S.

Post by Kelley30
I was just
curious as to whether Abby could ever do anything to change your
opinion of her...you said no which tells me something. No need to be
so hostile to me.
Kelley

LOL! What a crock! I was nowhere near being hostile. I stated a fact and
there was nothing hostile about it. I could care less what others think about
the character. Love her, hate her, think she's a saint, I don't care. My
"needs" have nothing whatsoever to with anyone hating a fictional character.
I'm done with this crap thread. Don't worry about another reply from me to
your Abby posts. Sheesh...
Sharon S.

Sorry you feel that way Sharon...I really do...

Kelley

[Kelley30]

Post by Sharon S.

Post by Kelley30
I was just
curious as to whether Abby could ever do anything to change your
opinion of her...you said no which tells me something. No need to be
so hostile to me.
Kelley

LOL! What a crock! I was nowhere near being hostile. I stated a fact and
there was nothing hostile about it. I could care less what others think about
the character. Love her, hate her, think she's a saint, I don't care. My
"needs" have nothing whatsoever to with anyone hating a fictional character.
I'm done with this crap thread. Don't worry about another reply from me to
your Abby posts. Sheesh...
Sharon S.

BTW whats the crock? Seriously what fact did you state? I think I'm
missing something here...

Kelley

[MWright186]

Post by Kelley30
I was just
curious as to whether Abby could ever do anything to change your
opinion of her...you said no which tells me something. No need to be
so hostile to me.

Hee, I've been visiting this group for quite awhile. I've gained that there are
a certain few here that no matter what Abby does she will ALWAYS be in the
wrong.

I have NO DOUBT it has everything to do with Abby having dated both Luka and
Carter and those fans of those men feeling Abby treated THEIR man wrong. Of
course, they never see THEIR man's mistakes/weaknesses in the relationship.

Eh, I find it amusing now because it's all so predictable but I'm enjoying your
steadfast defense of her :)

I happen to love Abby. I love Abby and Carter actually and though I was
frustrated with what happened with them in the premiere I'm looking forward to
where tptb take their relationship because I know that was not the end of it.
It is a TV show after all and it's all about the drama :)

[Sharon too]

Post by MWright186
I have NO DOUBT it has everything to do with Abby having dated both Luka and
Carter and those fans of those men feeling Abby treated THEIR man wrong.

Up until the very end of last season I was an ardent supporter of Abby's. As
for being a "fan" of Carter or Luka - I favor neither one over the other.

-Sharon

[Kelley30]

Post by MWright186

Post by Kelley30
I was just
curious as to whether Abby could ever do anything to change your
opinion of her...you said no which tells me something. No need to be
so hostile to me.

Hee, I've been visiting this group for quite awhile. I've gained that there are
a certain few here that no matter what Abby does she will ALWAYS be in the
wrong.
I have NO DOUBT it has everything to do with Abby having dated both Luka and
Carter and those fans of those men feeling Abby treated THEIR man wrong. Of
course, they never see THEIR man's mistakes/weaknesses in the relationship.
Eh, I find it amusing now because it's all so predictable but I'm enjoying your
steadfast defense of her :)

Make no mistake I don't think she is perfect. I think she has made
some big mistakes and I think that she should never have gotten into
her second relationship mainly due to her drinking and other big
issues...she has huge flaws...she is not perfect and I never said she
was. I just don't think that she is all to blame nor do I think that
she is the "Source of all Evil"... I think that Luka and Carter share
the blame and it floors me that some people will blame her for
everything and anything...But to each their own I guess It is just a
TV show. Hey perhaps we can to a cross over show with Charmed and the
Charmed Ones can come strip Abby's powers rendering her powerless over
the men of ER... :)

Kelley

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Banty
Maybe because he's an ex-boyfriend who has just turned in his key and has had
his stuff returned, and doens't owe her a special explanation.

But a few minutes earlier, they'd just been trying to work out their
differences again.
Yeah, I think he DID owe her an explanation.

Naomi

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Banty
Maybe because he's an ex-boyfriend who has just turned in his key and has had
his stuff returned, and doens't owe her a special explanation.

But a few minutes earlier, they'd just been trying to work out their
differences again.
Yeah, I think he DID owe her an explanation.
Naomi

Oh, come on.

It takes more than one rain to end a drought.

So Susan played Stupid Cupid and talked Abby into speaking to Carter. That's a
far cry from closing the distance she has put between them. People don't have
emotional toggle-switches that put them in full disclosure mode.

He didn't have a chance to even begin to tell her about his experience in Africa
- remember? He didn't instantly spill his emotional guts out on the street on
the way to work, after first lovingly reassuring her of her ex-lover's status -
remember? So he was cut off harshly and told he 'can't communicate'.

So - when he leaves again - HOW pray tell - how is he going to explain all that.

Like I said in antoher post - Abby is now far, far, behind where he is
emotionally and experientially. And has put in a mountain of distance by
getting the key back and returning his stuff (which I would have recognized as
pretty much what people do when *they're not together anymore* - what stormy
relationships do folks have IRL that they think this is just a wrinkle? OK, OK
- mebbe the true comparison standard would be TV romances.)

It would be so unreal if the writers had him patiently explain everything - I'd
want the to go out and reacquaint themselves with human beings if they had had
Carter stand there and patiently explain his return to Africa.

Have you considered - Abby could go to Africa too.
That's the kind of thing peple do who want to be close to someone.

Banty

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Banty

Post by Naomi Pardue
Yeah, I think he DID owe her an explanation.
Naomi

Oh, come on.
It takes more than one rain to end a drought.
So Susan played Stupid Cupid and talked Abby into speaking to Carter. That's a
far cry from closing the distance she has put between them. People

Oh, absolutely true. However, making an effort to begin it might have been
welcome. The thing is though, from Abby's POV, if John goes off to the Congo,
and ends up in a ditch with a bullet through his head as well, she NEVER gets
any more attempt at closure.
She didn't want Luka to go in the first place. ("He doesn't listen to me
either.") She didn't want John to go in the first place. Now Luka is dead.
(Proof positive that the place is VERY dangerous.) John goes back, John likely
be dead too.

Is she being selfish? Sure. But she's in pain. (too.) People in pain are
allowed to be selfish.

Post by Banty
He didn't have a chance to even begin to tell her about his experience in Africa
- remember?

He had talked to her, about some fairly general things. (The hospital, the
medical conditions.) Then there was a longish pause in the conversation. Which
she filled in with an entirely reasonable question (Where's Luka?), and he got
all offended, became even MORE uncommunicative -- leading the conversation to
turn into an argument (also reasonable) about how their lack of
communication/problems *aren't* all about her and her issues, but rest, to a
large degree on his shoulders as well.

Post by Banty
So - when he leaves again - HOW pray tell - how is he going to explain all that.

Bingo. He isn't. Because he's leaving again, will (as far as Abby is
concerned) probably die, and she will never know, really, what happened
between them.

Post by Banty
And has put in a mountain of distance by
getting the key back and returning his stuff (which I would have recognized as
pretty much what people do when *they're not together anymore* -
what stormy
relationships do folks have IRL that they think this is just a wrinkle?

Oh, I agree that the relationship IS probably over. But some sort of closure
would help. And Abby isn't getting that. It's like... to use a medical
analogy, Abby looked at the patient, decided he was dead, and pronounced him,
but then Carter decided to try and resusitate him. Now, maybe (probably) he IS
dead, but without doing a proper examation, we can't be sure yet, and there
hasn't been time for that. So do we just haul the guy off to the mourge?

Yeah, she asked for, and got, her key, and put his stuff on his locker, but
then she had a chance to cool off. She was willing to converse with him in the
ambulance bay and, as I've said a few times, when faced with the reality again
of losing him in the most permanent way possible, she realized she *wasn't*
ready for that one yet.

Post by Banty
Have you considered - Abby could go to Africa too.
That's the kind of thing peple do who want to be close to someone.

She probably doesn't have a passport. (Doesnt have the kind of money/lifestyle
for overseas travel.) And it takes time to get one. Given that Carter says that
he'll be back in a few days, this isn't very realistic.

Post by Banty
It would be so unreal if the writers had him patiently explain everything - I'd
want the to go out and reacquaint themselves with human beings if they had had
Carter stand there and patiently explain his return to Africa.

Not a long, convoluted explanation. But something like I suggested in another
post (forget now which thread.) "I just need to do this Abby. I need to find
out what happened to him, and bring him back. Don't *you* want to know?"
Looking her in the eye while saying it, rather than bustling around the room
grabbing handfuls of medical supplies. He could have spared her those 30
seconds. That's what people do with/for people they care about/ communicate
with.

Naomi

[Banty]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Banty

Post by Naomi Pardue
Yeah, I think he DID owe her an explanation.
Naomi

Oh, come on.
It takes more than one rain to end a drought.
So Susan played Stupid Cupid and talked Abby into speaking to Carter. That's a
far cry from closing the distance she has put between them. People

Oh, absolutely true. However, making an effort to begin it might have been
welcome.

From his part? Don't you expect baby-steps in something like that? After all
that?

Post by Naomi Pardue
The thing is though, from Abby's POV, if John goes off to the Congo,
and ends up in a ditch with a bullet through his head as well, she NEVER gets
any more attempt at closure.

Kinda goes with the territory of kicking somebody out; rather definitively
kicking him out - key, stuff hung on his locker.

Post by Naomi Pardue
She didn't want Luka to go in the first place. ("He doesn't listen to me
either.") She didn't want John to go in the first place. Now Luka is dead.
(Proof positive that the place is VERY dangerous.) John goes back, John likely
be dead too.

Abby doesn't control the world. She's too used to looking after someone (her
brother) - part of what she needs to deal with, one of her fundamental (and
understandable) problems with adult relationships.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Is she being selfish? Sure. But she's in pain. (too.) People in pain are
allowed to be selfish.

Post by Banty
He didn't have a chance to even begin to tell her about his experience in Africa
- remember?

He had talked to her, about some fairly general things. (The hospital, the
medical conditions.)

That's how conversations like that are. General, going slowly into the deeper
parts, which would start, say, over dinner, then continuing while occupying a
booth in a diner from 8 pm to 2 am. He offered the opening that it was a "life
changing experience". That says "later, I will, during a long walk in the park
(or the long stay in the diner or something)" to me.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Then there was a longish pause in the conversation.

That happens in real conversations. Especially ones which are occuring whilst
the participants are approaching their workplace in the morning.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Which
she filled in with an entirely reasonable question (Where's Luka?),

Yeah - "WHERE'S Luka" - not "how's Luka" - it's "how come he's not back like I
want". And I stand by that he wasn't really expected to come back with John.
Only Kerry asked about him being back, and she's only concerned with staffing
possiblities. (She and Luka have a history about her expecting him in ER at bad
times - remember?) Chuny, for instance, while she was all over the eppy, didn't
ask.

Post by Naomi Pardue
and he got
all offended, became even MORE uncommunicative -- leading the conversation to
turn into an argument (also reasonable) about how their lack of
communication/problems *aren't* all about her and her issues, but rest, to a
large degree on his shoulders as well.

"MORE" uncommunicative??!? What on earth do you think would happen normally??
Instant "SOMEONE HELD A GUN TO MY HEAD I ALMOST DIED I SAW TERRIBLE PAIN AND
HELPLESSNESS AND EVERY MINUTE I PERCEIVE DIFFERNTLY NOW yadda yaddda"?? Let
alone what his reception had been? He would be taking baby steps as far as
reconnecting with Abby at all under even ordinary circumstances.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Banty
So - when he leaves again - HOW pray tell - how is he going to explain all that.

Bingo. He isn't. Because he's leaving again, will (as far as Abby is
concerned) probably die, and she will never know, really, what happened
between them.

She had her chance. Guess life didn't build in a lot of leeway-time this
go-round for her. She should ask a friend who has watched this whole thing (not
Susan, who wants romance everywhere). Or she can reflect on things:

Re Eric, John saying "You do that."(She should think most about that, that gets
to the heart of the problem.)
Her to John "Can I have my key back."

That's more 'closure' than most people get about breakups - there's even a jazz
standard song standard about that 'Don't Explain'.

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Banty
And has put in a mountain of distance by
getting the key back and returning his stuff (which I would have recognized as
pretty much what people do when *they're not together anymore* -
what stormy
relationships do folks have IRL that they think this is just a wrinkle?

Oh, I agree that the relationship IS probably over. But some sort of closure
would help. And Abby isn't getting that. It's like... to use a medical
analogy, Abby looked at the patient, decided he was dead, and pronounced him,
but then Carter decided to try and resusitate him. Now, maybe (probably) he IS
dead, but without doing a proper examation, we can't be sure yet, and there
hasn't been time for that. So do we just haul the guy off to the mourge?

True Carter also has been sending major mixed signals.

Post by Naomi Pardue
Yeah, she asked for, and got, her key, and put his stuff on his locker, but
then she had a chance to cool off. She was willing to converse with him in the
ambulance bay and, as I've said a few times, when faced with the reality again
of losing him in the most permanent way possible, she realized she *wasn't*
ready for that one yet.

Post by Banty
Have you considered - Abby could go to Africa too.
That's the kind of thing peple do who want to be close to someone.

She probably doesn't have a passport. (Doesnt have the kind of money/lifestyle
for overseas travel.) And it takes time to get one. Given that Carter says that
he'll be back in a few days, this isn't very realistic.

48 hours to get a passport on an expidited basis. I just did. She can -
imagine this - ask Carter for the ticket funds. Hear tell he can swing it
financially. You're excusifying. (And which is it - he'll be back in a few
days, or he's gonna die?)

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Banty
It would be so unreal if the writers had him patiently explain everything - I'd
want the to go out and reacquaint themselves with human beings if they had had
Carter stand there and patiently explain his return to Africa.

Not a long, convoluted explanation. But something like I suggested in another
post (forget now which thread.) "I just need to do this Abby. I need to find
out what happened to him, and bring him back. Don't *you* want to know?"
Looking her in the eye while saying it, rather than bustling around the room
grabbing handfuls of medical supplies. He could have spared her those 30
seconds. That's what people do with/for people they care about/ communicate
with.

OK - he could have possibly said that. Perhaps the writers should supply him
with a social consultant. And a lot of valium, and teach him to walk on water.

His demeanor was very, very real. And Abby's told him his communication is
useless - remember? How many times would you have the Carter-ameoba seek the
painful stimuli?

Banty

[Karen]

Post by Naomi Pardue
Is she being selfish? Sure. But she's in pain. (too.) People in pain are
allowed to be selfish.

And Carter's _not_?!? Abby's in pain because her relationship has, once
again, gone to heck in a handbasket. Carter's in pain because he hasn't
processed his experience in Africa. He feels guilty for leaving without
being able to do more for the hospital there, and then he finds out that
the person he laft behind has died. Of _course_ Abby would be in more
pain. [/sarcasm]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Banty
He didn't have a chance to even begin to tell her about his experience in
Africa
- remember?

He had talked to her, about some fairly general things. (The hospital, the
medical conditions.) Then there was a longish pause in the conversation. Which
she filled in with an entirely reasonable question (Where's Luka?), and he got
all offended, became even MORE uncommunicative -- leading the conversation to
turn into an argument (also reasonable) about how their lack of
communication/problems *aren't* all about her and her issues, but rest, to a
large degree on his shoulders as well.

I think his response could also have been defensive because Luka had
stayed behind while Carter returned. Carter probably wanted to stay and
do more to help but Luka is the one who did.

Karen E.

[Naomi Pardue]

Post by Karen

Post by Naomi Pardue
Is she being selfish? Sure. But she's in pain. (too.) People in pain are
allowed to be selfish.

And Carter's _not_?!?

Please note the parenthetical 'too' in my posting. They are both in pain.

Post by Karen
Abby's in pain because her relationship has, once
again, gone to heck in a handbasket.

And because Luka is dead. And because Carter is about to go back into that
dangerous situation and possibly die too.

Post by Karen
Carter's in pain because he hasn't
processed his experience in Africa. He feels guilty for leaving without
being able to do more for the hospital there, and then he finds out that
the person he laft behind has died.

Yup.

Post by Karen
Of _course_ Abby would be in more
pain. [/sarcasm]

Nope. Not necessarily. I'm not in a position to quantify pain. But, as I said
to, I think, Sharon, Carter is the only one in a position to do anything about
the situation, so he has a certain responsibility towards Abby. He needs to do
what he needs to do, and that's cool. But to just assume that Abby's feelings
are completely unimportant is totally unfair of him. He COULD have explained,
but he didn't even try. Which just hurt her worse.

Post by Karen
I think his response could also have been defensive because Luka had
stayed behind while Carter returned. Carter probably wanted to stay and
do more to help but Luka is the one who did.

So why didn't he stay? It isn't like he needs his County job for the
money.....
(Maybe he came back to be with Abby? If so, why didn't he even try?)

Naomi

[Karen]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Karen
I think his response could also have been defensive because Luka had
stayed behind while Carter returned. Carter probably wanted to stay and
do more to help but Luka is the one who did.

So why didn't he stay? It isn't like he needs his County job for the
money.....
(Maybe he came back to be with Abby? If so, why didn't he even try?)

Well, she cut him off pretty much from the get-go, didn't she? He may be
tired of fighting to convince her he cares. Asking for the key back and
then topping it off with the bag o' stuff was pretty easy for him to
consider the death knell. I suppose he figured that trying at that point
would accompllish nothing other than leading to a huge fight.

Karen E.

[Banty]

Post by Karen

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Karen
I think his response could also have been defensive because Luka had
stayed behind while Carter returned. Carter probably wanted to stay and
do more to help but Luka is the one who did.

So why didn't he stay? It isn't like he needs his County job for the
money.....
(Maybe he came back to be with Abby? If so, why didn't he even try?)

Well, she cut him off pretty much from the get-go, didn't she? He may be
tired of fighting to convince her he cares. Asking for the key back and
then topping it off with the bag o' stuff was pretty easy for him to
consider the death knell.

Whatever gave him THAT idea?? Could it be that - it's because, y'know, how
couples break up, y'know?

Post by Karen
I suppose he figured that trying at that point
would accompllish nothing other than leading to a huge fight.

And he doesn't have much emotional capital left to spend.

Banty

[Kelley30]

Post by Naomi Pardue

Post by Karen

Post by Naomi Pardue
Is she being selfish? Sure. But she's in pain. (too.) People in pain are
allowed to be selfish.

And Carter's _not_?!?

Please note the parenthetical 'too' in my posting. They are both in pain.

Post by Karen
Abby's in pain because her relationship has, once
again, gone to heck in a handbasket.

And because Luka is dead. And because Carter is about to go back into that
dangerous situation and possibly die too.

Post by Karen
Carter's in pain because he hasn't
processed his experience in Africa. He feels guilty for leaving without
being able to do more for the hospital there, and then he finds out that
the person he laft behind has died.

Yup.

Post by Karen
Of _course_ Abby would be in more
pain. [/sarcasm]

Nope. Not necessarily. I'm not in a position to quantify pain. But, as I said
to, I think, Sharon, Carter is the only one in a position to do anything about
the situation, so he has a certain responsibility towards Abby. He needs to do
what he needs to do, and that's cool. But to just assume that Abby's feelings
are completely unimportant is totally unfair of him. He COULD have explained,
but he didn't even try. Which just hurt her worse.

Post by Karen
I think his response could also have been defensive because Luka had
stayed behind while Carter returned. Carter probably wanted to stay and
do more to help but Luka is the one who did.

So why didn't he stay? It isn't like he needs his County job for the
money.....
(Maybe he came back to be with Abby? If so, why didn't he even try?)
Naomi

Well said again Naomi

Kelley

[Richard3to16]

they are fictional characters who react how the writers want them to. TPTB

need to make up their minds. First Abby wants her key back and dumps Carter's
stuff at his locker. Then when he decides to goes back to find Luka, she
doesn't want him to go.

Taking back her key doesn't mean she wants to end her relationship with Carter.
It's just Abby hitting back because she was hurt. So TPTB don't really have to
"make up their minds."

[Steve and/or Donna]

If someone asks for their key back and hangs your stuff in a bag on your
locker, as I far as I would be concerned, I would consider the relationship
over, and would be pretty relieved about it if that's how it was handled.

Post by Richard3to16

they are fictional characters who react how the writers want them to.

TPTB

Post by Richard3to16
need to make up their minds. First Abby wants her key back and dumps Carter's
stuff at his locker. Then when he decides to goes back to find Luka, she
doesn't want him to go.
Taking back her key doesn't mean she wants to end her relationship with Carter.
It's just Abby hitting back because she was hurt. So TPTB don't really have to
"make up their minds."

[Richard3to16]

Post by Steve and/or Donna
If someone asks for their key back and hangs your stuff in a bag on your
locker, as I far as I would be concerned, I would consider the relationship
over, and would be pretty relieved about it if that's how it was handled.

If I were in Carter's shoes I'd take the first opportunity to leave Abby in the
dust, but then I'm not the angry woman.

[Kaiju]

Post by Veecksterama
And why would Carter be in love with such an unattractive brat?

I watched with my sister who commented, "Does she have baggage or
what?" I responded, "Nah. Not just baggage. Let's talk about full
trunks." Sister: "What do all of these attractive men see in her,
anyway? She's awful." I had no response to that one.

The writers must not like the actor/character. They wrote her as being
one of the most repugnant creatures ever appearing on ER. She was so
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.


Kaiju

[Chelsea Christenson]

Post by Kaiju
The writers must not like the actor/character. They wrote her as being
one of the most repugnant creatures ever appearing on ER. She was so
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.

I don't know who thought it was a good idea to make a major character
such a black hole of misery. And given her problems, there's really no
good way for the character to lighten up. Well, barring amnesia.

When Carter found the "You left your stuff" note -- that was just so
petty and childish.

[Shawn H]

Chelsea Christenson <***@nospam.com> wrote:
: Kaiju wrote:

:> The writers must not like the actor/character. They wrote her as being
:> one of the most repugnant creatures ever appearing on ER. She was so
:> unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
:> including Carter, is beyond me.

: I don't know who thought it was a good idea to make a major character
: such a black hole of misery. And given her problems, there's really no
: good way for the character to lighten up. Well, barring amnesia.

: When Carter found the "You left your stuff" note -- that was just so
: petty and childish.

And sort of endearingly pouty, too.

That's the stuff that keeps Carter's attention. What would he do if she
were happy? He'd be lost.

Shawn

[Kaiju]

Post by Chelsea Christenson

Post by Kaiju
The writers must not like the actor/character. They wrote her as being
one of the most repugnant creatures ever appearing on ER. She was so
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.

I don't know who thought it was a good idea to make a major character
such a black hole of misery. And given her problems, there's really no
good way for the character to lighten up. Well, barring amnesia.

What gets me is that the character started off as so happy, supportive,
and optimistic. Then almost overnight she was turned into a harpy.
First she was turned into an incompetent med student, then a failed med
student, and things went downhill from there. With Luka, she was overly
dependent, and with Carter she was an egocentric. So how, in the course
of three seasons, did Nurse Abby go from a happy nurse helping Nurse
Carol through labor, to Med Student Abby making a series of mistakes
even a novice nurse wouldn't make, to the ex-med student now petulant,
sulking, sometimes uncooperative Nurse Abby who is a mysterious femme
fatale? The sea shifts in personality and attitude are too much.

If anything should lead to the failure of ER, it is the Abby Lockhart
character. Let's be honest about it. There is nothing right, no less
consistent, about this character...and it has become a main character
all the same. More scenes are devoted to Nurse/Med Student Abby
Lockhart than to any other character, and in the end, she is both
annoying and forgettable.

Whoa. Did I just write the above? I think I've just discovered what I
most dislike about Abby Lockhart... She is a writers' convenient
construct, and the producers' favorite.

Post by Chelsea Christenson
When Carter found the "You left your stuff" note -- that was just so
petty and childish.

My sister, the occasional viewer, can't figure that one out. I'm a more
faithful viewer, and I can't figure that one out, either. I still don't
understand why Abby is so pissed at Carter... If anything, he should be
kicking *her* to the curb, IMO. She simply isn't good girlfriend
material.


Kaiju

[Shawn H]

Kaiju <***@ecn.com> wrote:

: My sister, the occasional viewer, can't figure that one out. I'm a more
: faithful viewer, and I can't figure that one out, either. I still don't
: understand why Abby is so pissed at Carter... If anything, he should be
: kicking *her* to the curb, IMO. She simply isn't good girlfriend
: material.

How wonderful would have been if, when he woke her up, she just groggily
reached for him, overjoyed that he was back? They could deal with the
rest in the morning.

Has she understood at all what the loss of Gamma has done to him?

Or is it that she can't get over the night he DIDN'T propose?

Shawn

[Ellen Hursh]

Post by Chelsea Christenson
When Carter found the "You left your stuff" note -- that was just so
petty and childish.

Well, since Abby didn't have a fish tank for him to break on his way out... ;-)

[Ar Q]

Post by Kaiju

Post by Veecksterama
And why would Carter be in love with such an unattractive brat?

I watched with my sister who commented, "Does she have baggage or
what?" I responded, "Nah. Not just baggage. Let's talk about full
trunks." Sister: "What do all of these attractive men see in her,
anyway? She's awful." I had no response to that one.
The writers must not like the actor/character. They wrote her as being
one of the most repugnant creatures ever appearing on ER. She was so
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.
Kaiju

And she is a smoker. The scene she immediately grabbed a cigarette after
Carter woke her up really turned me off.

[scribble]

Post by Kaiju
She was so

Post by Kaiju
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.
Kaiju

And she is a smoker. The scene she immediately grabbed a cigarette after
Carter woke her up really turned me off.

Ah, yes. She smokes, therefore she is Evil. EVIL, I tell you!!!
Smokers do not deserve to be loved; smokers do not deserve to be
happy; smokers do not deserve to have anyone care about them. We have
just discovered the REAL root of Abby's bitch-quality.

How interesting that you can sympathize with her alcoholism but not
with her nicotine addiction.

[Sharon too]

Post by scribble
Ah, yes. She smokes, therefore she is Evil. EVIL, I tell you!!!
Smokers do not deserve to be loved; smokers do not deserve to be
happy; smokers do not deserve to have anyone care about them. We have
just discovered the REAL root of Abby's bitch-quality.
How interesting that you can sympathize with her alcoholism but not
with her nicotine addiction.

I have to agree that the cigarette turned me off too. Nobody said it made
her evil, just that it's a turn off. When Carter and Luka puffed it made me
go "blech" just as well.

-Sharon

[Gina *]

I have to agree that the cigarette turned me >>off too. Nobody said it

made her evil, just that >>it's a turn off. When Carter and Luka puffed
it >>made me go "blech" just as well.

-Sharon .

.
In my mind, was not the aesthetics as much as the danger of smoking in
bed. A person not fully awake, smoking in her bed. And hadn't Abby
gone on the smokers' patch in order to quit that habit towards the end
of S9?

~~~Gina~~~

[Ar Q]

Post by Gina *

I have to agree that the cigarette turned me >>off too. Nobody said it

made her evil, just that >>it's a turn off. When Carter and Luka puffed
it >>made me go "blech" just as well.

-Sharon .

.
In my mind, was not the aesthetics as much as the danger of smoking in
bed. A person not fully awake, smoking in her bed. And hadn't Abby
gone on the smokers' patch in order to quit that habit towards the end
of S9?

Yes, but not all the writers watched the previous episodes.

[Anybody]

Post by scribble
How interesting that you can sympathize with her alcoholism but not
with her nicotine addiction.

Believe me, BOTH are complete "turn offs", as well as the over-use of
tatoos and the "sexy" barely-there clothing that many young women wear
these days.

The same goes for men, although instead of barely-there clothing, the
male "fashion" is for poorly fitting clothing tweleve sizes too big and
a scruffy appearance.

Anybody
who'll NEVER understand so-called "fashion" :-\

[DawnK]

Post by scribble

Post by Kaiju
She was so

Post by Kaiju
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.
Kaiju

And she is a smoker. The scene she immediately grabbed a cigarette after
Carter woke her up really turned me off.

Ah, yes. She smokes, therefore she is Evil. EVIL, I tell you!!!
Smokers do not deserve to be loved; smokers do not deserve to be
happy; smokers do not deserve to have anyone care about them. We have
just discovered the REAL root of Abby's bitch-quality.
How interesting that you can sympathize with her alcoholism but not
with her nicotine addiction.

It grossed me out, too. I can't imagine cigarette smoke when I first wake
up. Ewww!

Dawn

[Sharon too]

Post by DawnK
It grossed me out, too. I can't imagine cigarette smoke when I first wake
up. Ewww!

Ick. My mother is a smoker, as is my sister. They never smoke upstairs in
their homes, much less keep cigs at the bedside for a midnight puff.

-Sharon

[PattyC]

Post by scribble

Post by Kaiju
She was so

Post by Kaiju
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.
Kaiju

And she is a smoker. The scene she immediately grabbed a cigarette after
Carter woke her up really turned me off.

Ah, yes. She smokes, therefore she is Evil. EVIL, I tell you!!!
Smokers do not deserve to be loved; smokers do not deserve to be
happy; smokers do not deserve to have anyone care about them. We have
just discovered the REAL root of Abby's bitch-quality.
How interesting that you can sympathize with her alcoholism but not
with her nicotine addiction.

OK, look at it this way... She isn't "evil" for smoking, but... if you
smoke and someone else does not, and if you just saw the someone else for
the first time in ages, and you are inches from their face, and they are
telling you they've missed you, well, lighting up within that moment IS a
turn-off. I thought it was almost as rude as how cold she was to him in
general.

PattyC <---who smoked for 30 years (till 6/02!!), understands wanting a
cigarette when stressed, etc. Just THAT was NOT the right moment. (At
least get up and put some distance b/t you and the nonsmoker....)

[Banty]

Post by PattyC

Post by scribble

Post by Kaiju
She was so

Post by Kaiju
unsympathetic, totally irredeemable. Why anyone still cares about her,
including Carter, is beyond me.
Kaiju

And she is a smoker. The scene she immediately grabbed a cigarette after
Carter woke her up really turned me off.

Ah, yes. She smokes, therefore she is Evil. EVIL, I tell you!!!
Smokers do not deserve to be loved; smokers do not deserve to be
happy; smokers do not deserve to have anyone care about them. We have
just discovered the REAL root of Abby's bitch-quality.
How interesting that you can sympathize with her alcoholism but not
with her nicotine addiction.

OK, look at it this way... She isn't "evil" for smoking, but... if you
smoke and someone else does not, and if you just saw the someone else for
the first time in ages, and you are inches from their face, and they are
telling you they've missed you, well, lighting up within that moment IS a
turn-off. I thought it was almost as rude as how cold she was to him in
general.
PattyC <---who smoked for 30 years (till 6/02!!), understands wanting a
cigarette when stressed, etc. Just THAT was NOT the right moment. (At
least get up and put some distance b/t you and the nonsmoker....)

Right. I was wondering of Abby was doing that specifically to get at Carter, or
if it was just how Abby is - she responds to her impulses.

Banty

[Kimberley]

Post by Banty
Right. I was wondering of Abby was doing that specifically to get at Carter, or
if it was just how Abby is - she responds to her impulses.
Banty

That's what I thought. A good way to get ME to back off is to threaten to
light a cigarette. :)


Kimberley

[J. Wahl, Jr.]

To summarize all the threads posted on the Carter/Abby topic like the
subject itself would be way too mind numbing. But here's my quick and
dirty stab at it:

What we have, by any definition are two very emotionally scared people.
The question is, Will Carter and Abby will ever rise above the baser
"junior-high" games of you did this so I'll pay you back by doing that?
How long can you keep using Post delayed stress or dysfunctional
parents as an excess to not emotionally grow up?
Can you imagine these two in their mid-40's still blaming their parents
as a reason why they can't get happy.

Some posters (those with certain character bias) would contend that my
"get over it" and "jezz, grow up already"
viewpoint is perhaps too simplistic.
Truth is, somewhere, sometime in your life, you are going to need to
"cowboy-up" and decide to be an emotional adult, or forever be a victim
to arrested development.

Jack Wahl,Jr.