Discussion:
Priority
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All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
2009-04-05 22:06:52 UTC
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What takes priority, a DNR or a Power of Attorney?
KStahl
2009-04-06 03:14:10 UTC
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Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What takes priority, a DNR or a Power of Attorney?
Power of Attorney. It assumes the patient is not of sound mind. However,
Power of Attorney should not be misused based upon sentimentality.
sharon
2009-04-06 23:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by KStahl
Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What takes priority, a DNR or a Power of Attorney?
Power of Attorney. It assumes the patient is not of sound mind. However,
Power of Attorney should not be misused based upon sentimentality.
Not really. A DNR is obtained when a patient is very sick and in the last
stages of illness. In many cases, the patient himself makes the decision
with input from doctors, nurses and family; this is done while the patient
is still in possession of their mental faculties and, if necessary,
evaluation for competence is done in conjunction with it. Usually, the next
of kin is present and their opinion is considered, too, although the patient
has final say. The DNR is a legal document with witnesses and is binding.

A Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care is written up before the illness
is terminal. Actually, all adults should have one as well as a Living Will,
even if they're not sick. These documents are meant to be used when someone
becomes incapacitated and unable to make medical decisions. The patient
isn't necessarily terminal and the treatments being recommended are usually
not life sustaining ones. Interestingly, in this case, the DPA was a moot
point anyway as Ernest Borgnine's character was married to the patient
anyway. A spouse can legally make medical decisions without having a DPA.
The DPA is mostly for situations in which there might be some confusion as
to who is in charge. Someone who is married but separated or unmarried
needs it, especially if they feel their children or siblings might not be
able to agree on treatment. For example, I am single, my parents are dead
and I have 5 siblings. I chose the sister who is closest to me in age and
who shares a similar POV on end of life issues as I do to be my DPA.

ER has addressed this issue before. In Such Sweet Sorrow, Carol was caring
for a woman with advanced ovarian cancer who had a DNR. When she stopped
breathing, her husband begged Carol to do something so that he could bring
their children to say 'goodbye' first. Carol convinced Luka to do some
minor resuscitation and both of them got reamed out by Kerry because they
had violated the DNR.

In real life, it is extremely rare that a DPA would want to cancel a DNR,
most of them have seen their loved one suffer for a very long time and don't
want to see it prolonged. If it did, the doc would probably do what Gates
did here, try to convince the person that they should not contradict the
last wishes of the patient, that in the end, it would only prolong the
inevitable. Technically, the hospital's attorneys could get involved and
get a court order removing the DPA, but it's much better if everyone stays
on the same side rather than getting adversarial.

Sharon

A durable
All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
2009-04-07 20:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by sharon
Post by KStahl
Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What takes priority, a DNR or a Power of Attorney?
Power of Attorney. It assumes the patient is not of sound mind. However,
Power of Attorney should not be misused based upon sentimentality.
Not really. A DNR is obtained when a patient is very sick and in the last
stages of illness. In many cases, the patient himself makes the decision
with input from doctors, nurses and family; this is done while the patient
is still in possession of their mental faculties and, if necessary,
evaluation for competence is done in conjunction with it. Usually, the next
of kin is present and their opinion is considered, too, although the patient
has final say. The DNR is a legal document with witnesses and is binding.
A Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care is written up before the illness
is terminal. Actually, all adults should have one as well as a Living Will,
even if they're not sick. These documents are meant to be used when someone
becomes incapacitated and unable to make medical decisions. The patient
isn't necessarily terminal and the treatments being recommended are usually
not life sustaining ones. Interestingly, in this case, the DPA was a moot
point anyway as Ernest Borgnine's character was married to the patient
anyway. A spouse can legally make medical decisions without having a DPA.
The DPA is mostly for situations in which there might be some confusion as
to who is in charge. Someone who is married but separated or unmarried
needs it, especially if they feel their children or siblings might not be
able to agree on treatment. For example, I am single, my parents are dead
and I have 5 siblings. I chose the sister who is closest to me in age and
who shares a similar POV on end of life issues as I do to be my DPA.
ER has addressed this issue before. In Such Sweet Sorrow, Carol was caring
for a woman with advanced ovarian cancer who had a DNR. When she stopped
breathing, her husband begged Carol to do something so that he could bring
their children to say 'goodbye' first. Carol convinced Luka to do some
minor resuscitation and both of them got reamed out by Kerry because they
had violated the DNR.
In real life, it is extremely rare that a DPA would want to cancel a DNR,
most of them have seen their loved one suffer for a very long time and don't
want to see it prolonged. If it did, the doc would probably do what Gates
did here, try to convince the person that they should not contradict the
last wishes of the patient, that in the end, it would only prolong the
inevitable. Technically, the hospital's attorneys could get involved and
get a court order removing the DPA, but it's much better if everyone stays
on the same side rather than getting adversarial.
Sharon
A durable
What is the difference between a Durable Power of Attorney and a
Health Care Proxy?
Steve Bartman
2009-04-08 01:11:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:29:11 -0400, All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What is the difference between a Durable Power of Attorney and a
Health Care Proxy?
The answers to these sorts of questions will vary by state. There are
no national standards, or even names, for these types of legal
instruments.

Steve
sharon
2009-04-08 23:22:11 UTC
Permalink
snip
Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What is the difference between a Durable Power of Attorney and a
Health Care Proxy?
I'm not a lawyer, but, to the best of my knowledge, the difference is mainly
semantic. Each state sets of their own laws for these things and it goes by
different names in different localities. In Illinois, and Ohio where I
practice, the proper term is Durable Power of Attorney or DPA.

Sharon

sharon
2009-04-06 23:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by KStahl
Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What takes priority, a DNR or a Power of Attorney?
Power of Attorney. It assumes the patient is not of sound mind. However,
Power of Attorney should not be misused based upon sentimentality.
Not really. A DNR is obtained when a patient is very sick and in the last
stages of illness. In many cases, the patient himself makes the decision
with input from doctors, nurses and family; this is done while the patient
is still in possession of their mental faculties and, if necessary,
evaluation for competence is done in conjunction with it. Usually, the next
of kin is present and their opinion is considered, too, although the patient
has final say. The DNR is a legal document with witnesses and is binding.

A Durable Power of Attorney for Health Care is written up before the illness
is terminal. Actually, all adults should have one as well as a Living Will,
even if they're not sick. These documents are meant to be used when someone
becomes incapacitated and unable to make medical decisions. The patient
isn't necessarily terminal and the treatments being recommended are usually
not life sustaining ones. Interestingly, in this case, the DPA was a moot
point anyway as Ernest Borgnine's character was married to the patient
anyway. A spouse can legally make medical decisions without having a DPA.
The DPA is mostly for situations in which there might be some confusion as
to who is in charge. Someone who is married but separated or unmarried
needs it, especially if they feel their children or siblings might not be
able to agree on treatment. For example, I am single, my parents are dead
and I have 5 siblings. I chose the sister who is closest to me in age and
who shares a similar POV on end of life issues as I do to be my DPA.

ER has addressed this issue before. In Such Sweet Sorrow, Carol was caring
for a woman with advanced ovarian cancer who had a DNR. When she stopped
breathing, her husband begged Carol to do something so that he could bring
their children to say 'goodbye' first. Carol convinced Luka to do some
minor resuscitation and both of them got reamed out by Kerry because they
had violated the DNR.

In real life, it is extremely rare that a DPA would want to cancel a DNR,
most of them have seen their loved one suffer for a very long time and don't
want to see it prolonged. If it did, the doc would probably do what Gates
did here, try to convince the person that they should not contradict the
last wishes of the patient, that in the end, it would only prolong the
inevitable. Technically, the hospital's attorneys could get involved and
get a court order removing the DPA, but it's much better if everyone stays
on the same side rather than getting adversarial.

Sharon

A durable
Cory
2009-04-08 03:26:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <64MCl.4213$***@newsfe08.iad>, ***@nowhere.com
says...
Post by sharon
Post by KStahl
Post by All We Are Is Dust In The Wind
What takes priority, a DNR or a Power of Attorney?
Power of Attorney. It assumes the patient is not of sound mind. However,
Power of Attorney should not be misused based upon sentimentality.
Not really. A DNR is obtained when a patient is very sick and in the last
stages of illness.
Not always... during my nursing home stints (3, theoretically, but one
only lasted less than a week, IIRC, mostly because I damn near went
postal on the staff because the place was such a craphole that I wanted
out ASAP), I signed DNRs for two of the places, and I'm reasonably
healthy and in my 30's (remember, though, that I have Spina Bifida,
which is what indirectly led to my nursing home stints for decubitus
ulcers [pressure sores]).

I personally think that the criteria for who is "eligible", for lack of
a better word, to sign a DNR varies by state. Furthermore, I personally
believe that here in Wisconsin, anyone who enters a nursing home for
long-term care (even if they are going to be released in 3-6 months, on
average) can sign a DNR order if they choose to. Keep in mind, though,
that I'm not an attorney, and I do not play one on TV, either, so I
could be wrong about that (but given the fact that I signed DNR papers
for two of the facilities I was in, even though it was never, ever meant
to be a permanent placement, I have a feeling that I MAY be right about
Wisconsin's laws WRT DNR orders).

JM2CW...

--- Cory
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