Well I'll be ....

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When the writers wrote last nights episode did they even
watch an episode of Luca from past years?

I don't think Luca from his early seasons would have done that
with any woman.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Of course he had to be with his dad, but
it doens't change the fact that, during his absence, and, at least to
some extent, DUE to his absence, Abby had some awful stuff happen.

Abby should really have held her tongue until she has had
a parent die. Of course Abby won't experience that since
she and mom aren't close. Until you've had a parent you
were close to die can you really understand what Luka went
through.

Yeah Abby may have had it rough at times but Luka loosing
his father will be one of the most devastating events in
his life. Abby can't really grasp that with her mom but
but the fact remains the death of Luka's parent will
devaste him and it may well be many years before
he is completly over it. Abby as a doctor should
have grasped that by now. (As a doctor she has
seen how many parents die and leave relatives
devastated?)

Post by n***@indiana.edu
(Not to mention his ability to see, when he did arrive home, that
something was very wrong, or at least to guess what that 'something'
might be. And now, due to this bad stuff, he and Abby have to be apart
again. So yeah, "It's my fault," is a very normal, human reaction,
and a very normal, human way of expressing pain and grief. (And, just
for the record, he wasn't on his knees.)

No it is not Lukas fault. Having a parent die is one of the
most devastating events in persons life.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
And one other question. It seems that very often we've been told that
once a patient has been intubated, it requires quite a number of of
legal hoops to jump through before he can be extubated, even if he has
a clear DNR and/or family members want it done. So how were they able
to extubate our emphysema lady so immediately?

Pretent the patient was never intubated?

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I was thinking the other day about Julia. Aside from being a poorly
drawn character, she's also not a very logical choice for chaplain in
this ER. Surely the patient base (given its location and status) is
going to lean heavily towards Catholics (Chicago is the largest
Catholic diocese in the country) and, among the African Americans,
fairly conservative main-stream protestants. (Baptist, AME, etc.)
These are not people who are likely to respond well to a chaplain like
this.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn' the chaplain in a hospital
supposed to be able to handle all religions?

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Sigh.... so it was actually a pretty good espisode. Still, with Luka
presumably now gone for good, I don't know if I'm going to bother
anymore. There is nothing else on the show that holds my interest
anymore.
Naomi

So does this mean Luka is gone for good, Abby comes back from
rehab magically cured of alcoholism, she falls madly
in love with some other man, and somehow sheds
Luka?

(I have to wonder if the ending last night means that
Luka will want a divorce, the resulting divorce
forces Abby to check her self into rehab. Does she
ever really level with Luka about why? The whole thing
left me cold, like Abby kicked Luka in the teeth,
kneed him in the groin, and stabbed him the back. Abby
owed him more than what she gave.)

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-07 17:48:52 UTC

On Dec 7, 12:30 pm, Paul Bearer <Don't Bother...send to usenet> > +

Post by unknown
When the writers wrote last nights episode did they even
watch an episode of Luca from past years?
I don't think Luca from his early seasons would have done that
with any woman.

Done what? Gotten upset?

So what was Abby supposed to do given the situation? Go to Croatia
with him, drink behind his back at the funeral, and generally try to
hide her problems for another few months/years until Luka is feeling
better about the loss of his Dad? She's admitted she needs help. She
can't stop drinking without the help.

Post by unknown
Yeah Abby may have had it rough at times but Luka loosing
his father will be one of the most devastating events in
his life. Abby can't really grasp that with her mom but
but the fact remains the death of Luka's parent will
devaste him and it may well be many years before
he is completly over it. Abby as a doctor should
have grasped that by now. (As a doctor she has
seen how many parents die and leave relatives
devastated?)

Were Luka and his father 'close?' They have lived several thousand
miles apart (with only infrequent visits) for at least the past 9-10
years. Yes, it's always hard losing a parent, but people DO react in
a variety of different ways, depending on their particular
relationship, the suddenness, and other factors.

No it is not Lukas fault. Having a parent die is one of the
most devastating events in persons life.

Did I say it was his fault? No. I said he feels guilty even though it
WASN'T his fault.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn' the chaplain in a hospital
supposed to be able to handle all religions?

Many hospitals (esp. large ones) will have multiple Chaplains. But
yes, they should be able to handle most/all religions -- barring very
specific needs. (Obviously some situations require the services of a
specific ordained professional.) I just have to think that, say, a
Catholic patient will do better with a protestant chaplain than with
someone who presumably got her ordination by sending $20 to the
address in the back of "Rolling Stone."

Post by unknown
So does this mean Luka is gone for good, Abby comes back from
rehab magically cured of alcoholism, she falls madly
in love with some other man, and somehow sheds
Luka?
(I have to wonder if the ending last night means that
Luka will want a divorce, the resulting divorce
forces Abby to check her self into rehab.

Abby was headed for rehab at the end of the episode. I saw nothing in
it to suggest that Luka wants a divorce. At this point what they both
want is for Abby to dry out and for them to pick their marriage up and
try to fix it.

Naomi

unknown

2007-12-07 23:51:53 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
On Dec 7, 12:30 pm, Paul Bearer <Don't Bother...send to usenet> > +

Post by unknown
When the writers wrote last nights episode did they even
watch an episode of Luca from past years?
I don't think Luca from his early seasons would have done that
with any woman.

Done what? Gotten upset?

Grovel for forgiveness.

So what was Abby supposed to do given the situation?

First of all be understanding of her husband in this
difficult time and be supportive.

Just because Abby hates her mom doesn't mean Luka hates
his parents.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Abby was headed for rehab at the end of the episode. I saw nothing in
it to suggest that Luka wants a divorce. At this point what they both
want is for Abby to dry out and for them to pick their marriage up and
try to fix it.

Uhh...isn't GV in exactly zero episodes of ER from now on?

Don't they have to get rid of his character some how?.

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-08 00:23:05 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
On Dec 7, 12:30 pm, Paul Bearer <Don't Bother...send to usenet> > +

Post by unknown
When the writers wrote last nights episode did they even
watch an episode of Luca from past years?
I don't think Luca from his early seasons would have done that
with any woman.

Done what? Gotten upset?

Grovel for forgiveness.

He did no groveling. You've been hanging around sharon(s), haven't you?

So what was Abby supposed to do given the situation?

First of all be understanding of her husband in this
difficult time and be supportive.

Yeah, trouble is, as our resident pretend-doctor sharon(s) will be more
than happy to tell you, that ain't real easy when you're on the sauce.

Post by unknown
Just because Abby hates her mom doesn't mean Luka hates
his parents.

...?

Uhh...isn't GV in exactly zero episodes of ER from now on?
Don't they have to get rid of his character some how?.

My guess is that he'll get the Suzanne Somers treatment. A split
screen, 1-minute scene with Luka talking to Abby on the phone and one of
them saying "I want a divorce", and that's it. I thought sure that's
what they were doing when he was in Croatia. But who knows, maybe
TEERPTB are too dumb to steal even that hackneyed idea.

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-08 19:36:39 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
On Dec 7, 12:30 pm, Paul Bearer <Don't Bother...send to usenet> > +

Post by unknown
When the writers wrote last nights episode did they even
watch an episode of Luca from past years?
I don't think Luca from his early seasons would have done that
with any woman.

Done what? Gotten upset?

Grovel for forgiveness.

Which he didn't do.
?

Post by unknown
First of all be understanding of her husband in this
difficult time and be supportive.

Which I'm sure she would love to do, but at the moment all she can
care about is the bottle. That's how alcoholism works.

Post by unknown
Just because Abby hates her mom doesn't mean Luka hates
his parents.

Actually, Abby and Maggie have reconciled since Joe was born. And I
saw nothing in the episode to suggest that Abby thinks Luka should
hate his father. (She TOLD him to go to the funeral, right? If she
wanted him to hate his Dad/assumed he hated his Dad she would have
insisted that he stay home/come with her rehab.)

Uhh...isn't GV in exactly zero episodes of ER from now on?
Don't they have to get rid of his character some how?.

Yup. But the characters don't know that Luka isn't coming back.

Naomi

s***@gmail.com

2007-12-09 06:51:04 UTC

Post by unknown
Uhh...isn't GV in exactly zero episodes of ER from now on?
Don't they have to get rid of his character some how?.

Yup. But the characters don't know that Luka isn't coming back

According to TV Guide's interview with GV, he will be appearing in
three more episodes this season.

SBB

s***@gmail.com

2007-12-09 09:54:56 UTC

Loading Image...

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by unknown
Uhh...isn't GV in exactly zero episodes of ER from now on?
Don't they have to get rid of his character some how?.

Yup. But the characters don't know that Luka isn't coming back

According to TV Guide's interview with GV, he will be appearing in
three more episodes this season.
SBB

sharon

2007-12-08 14:18:48 UTC

snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
So what was Abby supposed to do given the situation? Go to Croatia
with him, drink behind his back at the funeral, and generally try to
hide her problems for another few months/years until Luka is feeling
better about the loss of his Dad? She's admitted she needs help. She
can't stop drinking without the help.

Well, in real life, she'd be waiting weeks for a bed to open in rehab, so it
wouldn't matter if she went to Croatia or not. She could've told him, gone
to Croatia for a couple of days to make an appearance at the funeral and
then gone; but that would've made sense, so it didn't happen.

Abby has never been one to sympathize with anyone else, it would be out of
character in some ways for her to be invested in how Luka is feeling, how
his father's illness and death have affected him. Similar to the death of
Carter's gamma, she doesn't really notice other people's misery except for
any direct effects on her own misery. Considering Luka's father was sick
and dying for many months and we got not a single word of concern from Abby
to Luka about it, it would be out of character for Abby to give a cr** about
it now. The fact that her parents are still alive and she really doesn't
like either one of them should not even be part of the equation. I've never
been married and yet I feel sad for my medical assistant whose husband is
dying of cancer at age 44 and am trying to support her as best I can. Weird
that Abby, who is so self involved, chose a career in medicine.
snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Were Luka and his father 'close?' They have lived several thousand
miles apart (with only infrequent visits) for at least the past 9-10
years. Yes, it's always hard losing a parent, but people DO react in
a variety of different ways, depending on their particular
relationship, the suddenness, and other factors.

We know his father was the first one he told about Abby's pregnancy. Luka
mentioned his father fairly frequently on the show, at least compared to
other characters. Then, when his father was sick, he rushed to be with him.
I think that qualifies as 'close'. Just because he lived on another
continent doesn't mean they weren't in contact and weren't close.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
(Not to mention his ability to see, when he did arrive home, that
something was very wrong, or at least to guess what that 'something'
might be. >>

While it took him awhile to figure out she was drinking, it seems to me he
realized pretty quickly that something was wrong with her. He said so
himself, that he thought she'd just 'forgotten' how to be married or maybe
had fallen out of love with him. As Luka is prone to do, he figures it must
be his problem, not hers.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Naomi

Luka's face at the end of the scene in their apartment seemed to indicate
that he has very mixed feelings and is uncertain what he wants to do. The
fact that he agreed to take Joe and leave her alone to go to rehab without a
single word of protest (this is the guy who wanted to go with her when she
had the abortion he didn't want her to have) indicated to me that he is
unsure what he wants to happen. There were lots of alternatives to the plan
Abby suggested, there is no reason for him to stay in Croatia for months
after the funeral, but he does.

Abby told him to go to Croatia with Joe for his father's funeral. She then
is in rehab, apparently for about a month. Luka is still in Croatia when
she goes back to work and for weeks afterward. It seems that he decided to
stay there for longer than she expected. She tells Pratt she talks to him
every day and it is her decision that they stay away, but she seems
uncomfortable and evasive. Although she was supposed to go to Croatia for a
2 week 'vacation' after leaving rehab, she is unable to answer any questions
about the country when her coworkers ask, so it appears that didn't happen
either. It seems to me that Luka has decided they need a break. Either that
or he is being written completely out of character once again to accomodate
the story. No way 'real' Luka isn't right there with Abby, going to Al-Anon
and counselling, taking care of their child, if that's where he wants to be.

I know these are spoilers, but this show is so bad these days, I refuse to
pretend that anyone cares.

Sharon

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-08 19:15:12 UTC

Post by sharon
snip

Well, in real life, she'd be waiting weeks for a bed to open in rehab, so it
wouldn't matter if she went to Croatia or not.

THere are private treatment centers that tend to have beds available.
(THey have good insurance, so she doens't need to wait for a bed to
open at County.) And you'll recall that Carter got a bed at a rehab
place with just a few hours notice.

She could've told him, gone

Post by sharon
to Croatia for a couple of days to make an appearance at the funeral and
then gone; but that would've made sense, so it didn't happen.

And if she had gone, and been drunk at the funeral (very likely, since
she can't stop drinking), you would have suggested that she went to
the funeral just to embarrass Luka, and she SHOULD have stayed home/
checked herself into rehab.

Post by sharon
Abby has never been one to sympathize with anyone else, it would be out of
character in some ways for her to be invested in how Luka is feeling, how
his father's illness and death have affected him.

She often sympathizes with others. But right now, the bottle is
trumping everything else.

Similar to the death of

Post by sharon
Carter's gamma, she doesn't really notice other people's misery except for
any direct effects on her own misery. Considering Luka's father was sick
and dying for many months and we got not a single word of concern from Abby
to Luka about it, it would be out of character for Abby to give a cr** about
it now. The fact that her parents are still alive and she really doesn't
like either one of them should not even be part of the equation. I've never
been married and yet I feel sad for my medical assistant whose husband is
dying of cancer at age 44 and am trying to support her as best I can. Weird
that Abby, who is so self involved, chose a career in medicine.

And even weirder, that Abby, who you claim never cares about anyone
else, OFTEN shows concern for her patients, her friends, and others
when they are dealing with problems. Just this moment, however, she
is not capable of caring about anything but where her next drink is
coming from. Alcoholism being like that.

Post by sharon
snip

I think there is a wide range of relationships that parents and adult
children can have. They certainly aren't estranged or distant, and
yes, they are in touch, but no, I never got the idea that they were
extremely close. The simple fact that, until Tata got sick, Luka
clearly HADN'T been back to Croatia in several years (he'd never
brought Abby or Joe to meet his family), indicates that they aren't
terribly close.

Post by sharon
Luka's face at the end of the scene in their apartment seemed to indicate
that he has very mixed feelings and is uncertain what he wants to do. The
fact that he agreed to take Joe and leave her alone to go to rehab without a
single word of protest (this is the guy who wanted to go with her when she
had the abortion he didn't want her to have)

HE has to go to the funeral. Abby can't go.

indicated to me that he is

Post by sharon
unsure what he wants to happen. There were lots of alternatives to the plan
Abby suggested, there is no reason for him to stay in Croatia for months
after the funeral, but he does.

Well, they have to write him out of the show. But I think, at this
particular moment, the characters don't know what's in store.

Naomi

sharon

2007-12-09 01:08:59 UTC

snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
THere are private treatment centers that tend to have beds available.
(THey have good insurance, so she doens't need to wait for a bed to
open at County.) And you'll recall that Carter got a bed at a rehab
place with just a few hours notice.

The place Carter went is based on a real place in Atlanta that specializes
in addicted physicians. In real life, there is a waiting list and it takes
several weeks minimum for get to the top of the list. I have two friends
who've been inpatients there, both waited for weeks for a bed. And that IS
a private facility. As is Hazelden and Betty Ford and a whole lot of other
places which also have a wait list. In real life, Abby wasn't going to be
admitted anywhere immediately. If anything, the good private facilities
have a longer wait than the public ones.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
She could've told him, gone

Post by sharon
to Croatia for a couple of days to make an appearance at the funeral and
then gone; but that would've made sense, so it didn't happen.

Or maybe she could've pulled her selfish head out of her butt long enough to
behave like a decent human being. Not likely, I realize, and, since Abby,
even when sober, is known for her lack of manners at funerals, it's just as
well she didn't go. However, Abby was managing to go to work despite being
in the midst of a major binge. If she could contain herself long enough to
work 8 hours or more in the ER, then surely she could abstain for a few
hours for her husband's sake to go to Mass with him.

She often sympathizes with others. But right now, the bottle is
trumping everything else.

When, exactly, have we seen her ever sympathize with others? Sure,
sometimes she acts like she gives half a dam* about patients, but, when it
comes to her friends and family, we sure don't see her being supportive in a
crisis very often. When Carter's grandmother died, her excuse was that she
was worried about Eric. She's always got a reason why her personal issues
make it impossible for her to care about anyone else. That she would have no
concern whatsoever about her HUSBAND at a time like this, drinking or not,
is pretty sad and doesn't say much for her prognosis.
snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
And even weirder, that Abby, who you claim never cares about anyone
else, OFTEN shows concern for her patients, her friends, and others
when they are dealing with problems. Just this moment, however, she
is not capable of caring about anything but where her next drink is
coming from. Alcoholism being like that.

Amazingly enough, even in the midst of relapse, most alcoholics do indeed
have moments where they can empathize with others. The problem is that Abby
doesn't do it when she isn't drinking, so there's no reason she'd be any
different now.

Once again, examples please. When Neela was hurt, we saw her behave like a
complete a** in order to assert her dominance in the ER, but that was just
more Abby Always Knows Best and must be obeyed, not so much concern for
Neela, IMO or she wouldn't have been screeching at the chief of surgery and
her boss. When Neela was discharged, it was pretty clear that Abby's major
motivation for having her stay was so that she wouldn't be alone with the
baby and not so much for Neela's well being. Hell, Neela was babysitting
for her kid almost immediately postop.

Post by sharon
snip
We know his father was the first one he told about Abby's pregnancy.
Luka
mentioned his father fairly frequently on the show, at least compared to
other characters. Then, when his father was sick, he rushed to be with him.
I think that qualifies as 'close'. Just because he lived on another
continent doesn't mean they weren't in contact and weren't close.

This is true, but, when his father got sick, Luka returned immediately and
Abby didn't question even for a moment that he needed to go, indicating to
me anyway, that he was close enough to his father to want to be there in a
crisis and his wife knew it. I agree, we should've heard more about Luka's
father over the years, he should've visited Chicago as nearly every other
parent on the show has. To me, the fact that we didn't get a whole lot of
info about his relationship with his Dad is more a function of the fact
that, for the past several years, Luka's character has only existed onscreen
in order to give Abby a relationship. Luka started out as a real boy on the
show, he was reduced to a cardboard cutout by the end of his run whose only
role was to react to Abby's drama.

Post by sharon
Luka's face at the end of the scene in their apartment seemed to indicate
that he has very mixed feelings and is uncertain what he wants to do.
The
fact that he agreed to take Joe and leave her alone to go to rehab without a
single word of protest (this is the guy who wanted to go with her when she
had the abortion he didn't want her to have)

HE has to go to the funeral. Abby can't go.

I've already explained that I disagree. However, to me, the Luka we've seen
over the past few years, Abby's little manservant. would've offered to stay
behind with her, telling her he had been with his father when he was alive,
had recently seen everyone he needed to see and that his father would want
him to remain with her and help her. Sorta like Abby implied to Carter that
he didn't have to hang around Chicago after his Gamma died when he could be
gallivanting all over Iowa looking for her brother with her. Life is for
the living and all that.

Or, he could've promised her he would be back ASAP, that he would not tarry
this time, that he and Joe needed to be there with her and give her all
their support. Rehab centers are very family centered and it would be an
important part of the process for Luka to participate in family sessions
with her in order to understand how he has enabled her drinking and what he
needed to do in order to help her. Instead, we know he leaves and is gone
for months once again.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Well, they have to write him out of the show. But I think, at this
particular moment, the characters don't know what's in store.
Naomi

There's no reason TPTB couldn't have him offscreen and Abby tell us he is
working at another hospital and helping with Joe or mention he went with her
to marital counselling. The fact he is gone and apparently neither he nor
Abby are doing anything to salvage their trainwreck of a marriage doesn't
bode well. From what we have, it's not certain they are actually talking
about the situation at all. Abby tells Pratt that Luka calls her every
single day, but her attitude in the scene is evasive and anxious, making it
seem like she is not telling the truth. I have no doubt that, if the show
ends this year, we will be subjected to a bogus reunion between them and
TPTB actually expect that we'd buy them as living happily ever after from
there, but how could anyone think this marriage has any sort of a future
with what we've seen thus far? These are two terribly mismatched people who
bring out the worst in one another. That won't change unless they both want
to work at it together and not on different continents.

Sharon

Sharon Too

2007-12-09 02:56:10 UTC

Post by sharon
Or maybe she could've pulled her selfish head out of her butt long enough
to behave like a decent human being. Not likely, I realize, and, since
Abby, even when sober, is known for her lack of manners at funerals, it's
just as well she didn't go.

Chulack probably had it in the works when the strike started:

Abby, drunk at the funeral, falls into her father-in-law's open grave. Luka
hands out shovels and they all start filling it in.

No. Makes too much sense.

Ellen K Hursh

2007-12-09 22:14:24 UTC

Post by Sharon Too

Abby, drunk at the funeral, falls into her father-in-law's open grave. Luka
hands out shovels and they all start filling it in.
No. Makes too much sense.

Sounds like an AbFab schtick, with Abby solidly in the Edina role.
(Though I'm not sure who would be Patsy.)

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-09 03:05:26 UTC

Post by sharon
snip

Well, as we're fond of noting, ER isn't real life, and sometimes
dramatic liscence DOES apply. It was very clear to me that Abby WAS
headed for a treatment cener somewhere.

She often sympathizes with others. But right now, the bottle is
trumping everything else.

Yes, she cared about Eric. We've discussed this scenario a dozen
times. She was in a tough situation. She had TWO people who needed
her at the same time, and she couldn't possibly be there for both. So
she dealt with the most pressing crisis, (which, at that point, WAS
Eric) then made it back as soon as she could to deal with the next
one. (Help Carter with the arrangements, and offer moral support.)

And yes, we see her caring about her patients. Often.

Post by sharon
Once again, examples please. When Neela was hurt, we saw her behave like a
complete a** in order to assert her dominance in the ER, but that was just
more Abby Always Knows Best and must be obeyed, not so much concern for
Neela, IMO or she wouldn't have been screeching at the chief of surgery and
her boss.

I missed the first eppy this season.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
HE has to go to the funeral. Abby can't go.

What? When did Abby tell Carter that he had to go to Iowa with her?
When she bumped into him in the hall, she didn't yet know that Gamma
had died. I dont recall the precise dialogue, but once he told her,
she was very warm and sympathetic, and offered her condolences. She
DID say that she needed to deal with the Eric crisis, but never even
hinted that he needed to go with her.

Post by sharon
There's no reason TPTB couldn't have him offscreen and Abby tell us he is
working at another hospital and helping with Joe or mention he went with her
to marital counselling.

Absolutely correct. I was just thinking earlier today that, with the
odds of the show being renewed roughly equal to that of a snowball
surviving 6 months hours in hell ... it should have been possible to
write around Luka's absence without necessitating a long sojourn in
Croatia for him. We're already halfway through the season.

Naomi

sharon

2007-12-09 23:18:19 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Well, as we're fond of noting, ER isn't real life, and sometimes
dramatic liscence DOES apply. It was very clear to me that Abby WAS
headed for a treatment cener somewhere.

Yep, but your point that private facilities are easy to get admitted to in
real life was incorrect. I know she was supposedly headed off to treatment
even though she apparently didn't decide to go until just that evening and
couldn't possibly have had time to make any arrangements. In Carter's case,
we at least heard that Kerry had called someone she knew to get him placed.
I have heard of dramatic license, BTW.
snip

Post by sharon
When, exactly, have we seen her ever sympathize with others? Sure,
sometimes she acts like she gives half a dam* about patients, but, when it
comes to her friends and family, we sure don't see her being supportive in a
crisis very often. When Carter's grandmother died, her excuse was that she
was worried about Eric.

Yes, she cared about Eric.

Abby cared about Eric so much that when she went to see him after he was
arrested for being AWOL, all she could do was chastise him for not calling
her first and for contacting Maggie. Then, after she retrieved him from
Iowa, she insisted he move to Chicago and enter an extremely restrictive
program. When Eric (and Maggie) balked at her attempts to control the
situation, she apparently decided to write him off as we haven't seen or
heard another word about him since. Abby cares about Eric only as long as
he lives his life according to Abby's rules. I think she loves him as much
as she can, but she is so emotionally stunted and self centered that it
ain't much.

We've discussed this scenario a dozen

Post by n***@indiana.edu
times. She was in a tough situation. She had TWO people who needed
her at the same time, and she couldn't possibly be there for both. So
she dealt with the most pressing crisis, (which, at that point, WAS
Eric) then made it back as soon as she could to deal with the next
one. (Help Carter with the arrangements, and offer moral support.)

When did she help Carter with arrangements? What show were you watching?
What moral support did she give him? The only thing we saw her do was show
up at the funeral and let her mentally ill brother cause a scene. No
support at all.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
And yes, we see her caring about her patients. Often.

Only insofar as she needs to 'help' them by forcing her will on them,
breaking the rules and otherwise being a controlling PITA.

I missed the first eppy this season.

It was the typical 'Abby saves the day' fest in which the entire thing was
written so that Abby turned out to be the only doc who could handle the
crisis.
snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
What? When did Abby tell Carter that he had to go to Iowa with her?
When she bumped into him in the hall, she didn't yet know that Gamma
had died. I dont recall the precise dialogue, but once he told her,
she was very warm and sympathetic, and offered her condolences. She
DID say that she needed to deal with the Eric crisis, but never even
hinted that he needed to go with her.

Abby didn't 'bump' into Carter in the hall, she sought him out, wanting him
to write some prescriptions for Eric (I won't even get into the ethical
issues of telling her boyfriend to give meds to someone who isn't his
patient or for a nurse without an advanced practice degree telling him what
to prescribe). She immediately started babbling on about what had happened,
misunderstanding that Carter didn't know about Eric and he was working on an
entirely different crisis. When he told her his grandmother had died, she
briefly touched his hand, that was it, the sum total of her show of support.
When he told her his father was coming to town, she immediately suggested
that that meant he didn't have to hang around to make the arrangements since
his father could. She very clearly meant that he should come with her to
get Eric. That's when Carter, noting her cold response to Gamma's death,
made the sarcastic remark that she was right, Gamma would still be dead
tomorrow. During the entire exchange, she had her grubby paw out, waiting
for him to hand her the prescriptions. She was neither warm, nor
sympathetic and Carter saw it immediately, don't know how you missed it.
snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Absolutely correct. I was just thinking earlier today that, with the
odds of the show being renewed roughly equal to that of a snowball
surviving 6 months hours in hell ... it should have been possible to
write around Luka's absence without necessitating a long sojourn in
Croatia for him. We're already halfway through the season.
Naomi

I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

Sharon

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-10 14:55:40 UTC

On Dec 9, 6:18 pm, "sharon" <***@nowhere.com> wrote:

. So

Post by n***@indiana.edu
she dealt with the most pressing crisis, (which, at that point, WAS
Eric) then made it back as soon as she could to deal with the next
one. (Help Carter with the arrangements, and offer moral support.)

There was roughly a week of unseen time (between the trip to Iowa and
the funeral), during which we didn't see ANYTHING. We didn't know for
sure that she 'helped' but neither do we know for sure that she
didn't. Nothing was ever said either way.

Post by sharon
. She was neither warm, nor
sympathetic and Carter saw it immediately, don't know how you missed it.

It's been a while since I've watched the eppy, but I'm sure it can be,
and IS interpreted in different ways, depending on the POV of the
viewer. If I think about it I'll watch again tonight.

I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

And.... if MP and LC and GV are gone ... who will be left? (Unless
they start a new show "ER -The Next Generation.")

I dunno. The more I think about it, the clearer it has become that
(among many other problems, of course) TPTB simply wrote themselves
into a corner with this storyline. Long before they filmed the
wedding, they KNEW that GV planned to leave at the end of the season.
So the idea that they would write the wedding, and then have to figure
out a way to split them up again within a few episodes set them up for
a challenge they simply don't have the skills to cope with.

They really shouldof/couldof done one of the two things. 1. Skip the
wedding. Have Abby decide that she just can't marry him (this without
the 'suprise wedding' storyline), and Luka, who has already quit as
department head, decides to leave County and get a job elsewhere. (And
his few appearences this season would revolve around his visits to his
young son.) 2. Kill him off. Lots of ways they could have done
this. Work it in together with SW's departure. (Luka tries to save
Ray and is killed himself.) Or a reworking of the mugger story --
make Luka and Abby's relationship a full-circle. In either case it,
rather than the stampede, would have served admirably as the now-
standard sturm-und-drang season finale/cliffhanger, AND, if the
writers were set on having the Abby Falls off the Wagon storyline, it
would have made her fall much easier to believe than the "Oh, Joe fell
down and went boom and I can't deal with the strain --- Luka has gone
off to Croatia and isn't even sufficiently in touch to wonder about
the financial implications of having the primary breadwinner on unpaid
leave for six months" crap we're being expected to swallow.

Naomi

Post by sharon
Sharon

Ellen K Hursh

2007-12-10 20:03:45 UTC

Post by sharon
I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

And.... if MP and LC and GV are gone ... who will be left? (Unless
they start a new show "ER -The Next Generation.")

"ER Babies", set in the County daycare: all our favorite characters,
re-imagined as tots.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
They really shouldof/couldof done one of the two things. 1. Skip the
wedding. Have Abby decide that she just can't marry him (this without
the 'suprise wedding' storyline), and Luka, who has already quit as
department head, decides to leave County and get a job elsewhere. (And
his few appearences this season would revolve around his visits to his
young son.) 2. Kill him off.

It's certainly not as though GV is unfamiliar with onscreen death.
"Okay, how do I get killed THIS time?"

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Lots of ways they could have done this. Work it in together with SW's departure. (Luka
tries to save Ray and is killed himself.) Or a reworking of the mugger story --
make Luka and Abby's relationship a full-circle.

Or they could've gone for the ironic, and had him take a pratfall in
front of an El train. (Though this requires believing that he was
thinking about jumping in that scene in "May Day") "Whoooooops! Oh,
bollock*splat*"

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-11 00:36:46 UTC

Post by sharon
I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

And.... if MP and LC and GV are gone ... who will be left? (Unless
they start a new show "ER -The Next Generation.")

"ER Babies", set in the County daycare: all our favorite characters,
re-imagined as tots.

OH MY GOD, I WOULD TOTALLY WATCH THAT!!!!!

"E-R Bayyy-beees!
They run around and dance!
Do doo do doo do dooo!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They often poop their pants!
Do dee do dee dooo do!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're far too young to drink or sleep around!
NER NER NER NERRRRRRRR!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're coming to your town! CHA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

dlcandc

2007-12-11 18:20:44 UTC

Post by sharon
I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

And.... if MP and LC and GV are gone ... who will be left? (Unless
they start a new show "ER -The Next Generation.")

"ER Babies", set in the County daycare: all our favorite characters,
re-imagined as tots.

OH MY GOD, I WOULD TOTALLY WATCH THAT!!!!!
"E-R Bayyy-beees!
They run around and dance!
Do doo do doo do dooo!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They often poop their pants!
Do dee do dee dooo do!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're far too young to drink or sleep around!
NER NER NER NERRRRRRRR!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're coming to your town! CHA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Oh my goodness! You and Ellen are too much! ;-)
----
Lori

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-12 01:51:01 UTC

Post by dlcandc

Post by sharon
I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

And.... if MP and LC and GV are gone ... who will be left? (Unless
they start a new show "ER -The Next Generation.")

"ER Babies", set in the County daycare: all our favorite characters,
re-imagined as tots.

OH MY GOD, I WOULD TOTALLY WATCH THAT!!!!!
"E-R Bayyy-beees!
They run around and dance!
Do doo do doo do dooo!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They often poop their pants!
Do dee do dee dooo do!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're far too young to drink or sleep around!
NER NER NER NERRRRRRRR!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're coming to your town! CHA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Oh my goodness! You and Ellen are too much! ;-)
----
Lori

;-) Admit it, you'd totally watch that show!

dlcandc

2007-12-12 15:27:16 UTC

Post by dlcandc

Post by sharon
I am very afraid that a prolonged writer's strike would cause NBC to
consider a 15th season to give ER a longer sendoff. Chulack and Wells are
both campaigning for it big time.

And.... if MP and LC and GV are gone ... who will be left? (Unless
they start a new show "ER -The Next Generation.")

"ER Babies", set in the County daycare: all our favorite characters,
re-imagined as tots.

OH MY GOD, I WOULD TOTALLY WATCH THAT!!!!!
"E-R Bayyy-beees!
They run around and dance!
Do doo do doo do dooo!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They often poop their pants!
Do dee do dee dooo do!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're far too young to drink or sleep around!
NER NER NER NERRRRRRRR!
E-R Bayyyy-beees!
They're coming to your town! CHA!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Oh my goodness! You and Ellen are too much! ;-)
----
Lori

;-) Admit it, you'd totally watch that show!

Oh, you know it! I am sooooooo there! ;-)
----
Lori

unknown

2007-12-11 16:26:22 UTC

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:03:45 -0800 (PST), Ellen K Hursh

Post by Ellen K Hursh
"ER Babies", set in the County daycare: all our favorite characters,
re-imagined as tots.

We already have that....her name is Abby. (Ducks for cover)

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-11 14:20:22 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
. So

Post by sharon
. She was neither warm, nor
sympathetic and Carter saw it immediately, don't know how you missed it.

It's been a while since I've watched the eppy, but I'm sure it can be,
and IS interpreted in different ways, depending on the POV of the
viewer. If I think about it I'll watch again tonight.

So, I rewatched "Things Change" last night. And, not surprsingly, your
memories of it/take on it bear precious little resemblence to what
happened on screen.

As Carter is getting ready to leave (having heard about Gamma's death
a while before), he asks Frank to find Abby for him. She then comes
around the corner and says "I've been looking for you." He says "I've
been looking for YOU." Before they can get much more detail out, the
guy with the sore throat is brought back in, and they rush to help
him, while Carter asks if Abby can leave as soon as they are done with
him,says things like "I really don't want to do this alone ..." and
Abby looks baffled. They work on the patient a while longer, and Abby
explains (after Carter responds to her "What are you talking about?"
with "What are YOU talking about?") briefly about Eric, and that she
needs the scrip, then Abby asks Carter what's wrong. Carter says "My
grandmother died today." And Abby looks shocked and distressed. They
finish with the patient and head out into the hall, Carter writes her
the scrip, and Abby says "I'm SO sorry. No one told me."

She then listens quietly and rubs his back while Carter talks a bit
about Gamma, and she offers some comforting words. She then assures
him that she will be back tonight -- the flight's just an hour.

And Carter says "Do you have to go? My Dad's flying in ... You
haven't seen your brother in months, why do you have to go now?" Abby
explains that he's off his meds, she can't reach Maggie, and if she
doesn't go now, he may disappear again.
Carter looks disgusted/incredulous and starts to walk away. Abby
follows, reiterating that she WILL be back tonight. Carter opens the
door to the lounge and says "Go. Go find your brother. My grandmother
will still be dead tomorrow." He enters the lounge, leaving Abby
looking distressed and upset.

Then, the next episode, there is no indication that Abby hasn't been
around. Carter tells Jack that she's going to meet them at a
cemetery, and Abby is getting ready to go, when Eric shows up. (Having
'escaped' from his completely voluntary treatment center.) She does
bring him to the funeral (having no other real options), and is
sitting holding Carter's hand and giving him comforting looks when
Eric gets out of the car and things, of course, go terribly wrong.
When all is over, she makes multiple attempts to apologize and
explain, and Carter just tells her to go away. Twice.

So ... NO implication that she expected him to go to Iowa with her. NO
suggestion that since Jack was coming, Carter didn't need to stick
around (or she didn't need to come back.) NO, hint from Abby that
"Gamma would still be dead tomorrow." Just a clear case of two people
who needed her, and she had to choose the one who, at that moment, had
the most pressing needs. (She was, presumably, supposed to leave Eric
sitting in the truck stop for 4-5 days until after the funeral?) If
anything, it was Carter who was acting (not completely without cause)
like a petulant brat.

(Oh, and that episode was also a good example of Abby caring about her
patient -- when she's doing a very good job of calming the psychotic
patient, telling him that she's there to 'Keep him safe. That's what I
do. I keep people safe.")

Naomi

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-12 01:09:09 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
. So

Post by sharon
. She was neither warm, nor
sympathetic and Carter saw it immediately, don't know how you missed it.

It's been a while since I've watched the eppy, but I'm sure it can be,
and IS interpreted in different ways, depending on the POV of the
viewer. If I think about it I'll watch again tonight.

So, I rewatched "Things Change" last night. And, not surprsingly, your
memories of it/take on it bear precious little resemblence to what
happened on screen.

[snip]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAAAHHHAAA!!! "Carter saw
it immediately" NAOMI! I "don't know how you missed it"!!!!!

OMG SHARON(S), YOU ARE FULL OF MORE CRAP THAN LOUIE ANDERSON'S SEPTIC
TANK!!! MAYBE SOMEHOW THE EPISODE WAS "REWORKED" AFTER IT AIRED?!?!?

Again, seriously sharon(s), two more all-caps words for you: SEEK HELP.

sharon

2007-12-12 03:33:41 UTC

snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
There was roughly a week of unseen time (between the trip to Iowa and
the funeral), during which we didn't see ANYTHING. We didn't know for
sure that she 'helped' but neither do we know for sure that she
didn't. Nothing was ever said either way.

The rule on this newsgroup and most other discussion sites used to be: if
we didn't see it, it didn't happen. There was no indication whatsoever that
Carter felt Abby had been at all helpful in coping with the death. From the
way the relationship imploded shortly thereafter and from Abby's general
lack of concern about Gamma's death in favor of her obsession with Eric from
the start, I'd say it's highly unlikely that Carter felt very supported by
Abby during the 3 days or so between the death and the funeral. There was
no indication that Gamma's funeral was delayed for a week after her death,
which would be an unusually long interval, not that it matters.

Post by sharon
. She was neither warm, nor
sympathetic and Carter saw it immediately, don't know how you missed it.

It's been a while since I've watched the eppy, but I'm sure it can be,
and IS interpreted in different ways, depending on the POV of the
viewer. If I think about it I'll watch again tonight.

So, I rewatched "Things Change" last night. And, not surprsingly, your
memories of it/take on it bear precious little resemblence to what
happened on screen.

Lordy, you are a glutton for punishment! I haven't seen it since it aired,
don't have it on tape.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
As Carter is getting ready to leave (having heard about Gamma's death
a while before), he asks Frank to find Abby for him. She then comes
around the corner and says "I've been looking for you." He says "I've
been looking for YOU." Before they can get much more detail out, the
guy with the sore throat is brought back in, and they rush to help
him, while Carter asks if Abby can leave as soon as they are done with
him,says things like "I really don't want to do this alone ..." and
Abby looks baffled. They work on the patient a while longer, and Abby
explains (after Carter responds to her "What are you talking about?"
with "What are YOU talking about?") briefly about Eric, and that she
needs the scrip, then Abby asks Carter what's wrong. Carter says "My
grandmother died today." And Abby looks shocked and distressed. They
finish with the patient and head out into the hall, Carter writes her
the scrip, and Abby says "I'm SO sorry. No one told me."

OK, so my first point, that Abby and Carter were looking for one another,
and didn't bump into each other randomly was correct. I was also correct in
my recollection that there was some initial confusion as to what the other
was referring to initially. I didn't see Abby's look as so much shocked
and distressed on Carter's behalf as she was that Gamma had kicked it at a
rather inconvenient time for her.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
She then listens quietly and rubs his back while Carter talks a bit
about Gamma, and she offers some comforting words. She then assures
him that she will be back tonight -- the flight's just an hour.

Which he knew was utter bullshit, as did she. For the record, Little Miss
'I'll be back tonight' checked into a motel in Iowa with Eric, even bringing
some of Carter's clothes for him to wear despite telling Carter they'd be
back before morning. If Abby was so darned sure she was coming back
immediately, why did she go home and pack a bag? She was clearly lying so
Carter wouldn't question her decision, she never planned to come back that
night,. Also, the 'back rub' (which I recalled as rubbing his arm/hand for a
moment) lasted no more than a few seconds, while she spent the majority of
the scene with her hand outstretched, impatiently awaiting the prescriptions
that he shouldn't have been writing in the first place.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
And Carter says "Do you have to go? My Dad's flying in ... You
haven't seen your brother in months, why do you have to go now?" Abby
explains that he's off his meds, she can't reach Maggie, and if she
doesn't go now, he may disappear again.

Which, of course, since it was literally hours from the time she had last
spoken to him until she could get there, in real life, he'd most likely have
been long gone anyway. I speak from personal experience. Abby's 'plan' made
no sense as usual, she was taking a late flight to Iowa (it was already dark
when she left), assuming that her mentally ill brother had stayed at a diner
for hours and hours (and that the management let him) waiting for her to
show up and then figured they'd catch a nonexistent middle of the night
flight back from Iowa. That Eric was still there and was actually willing
to return with her without much fuss was a miracle in modern times, I guess
she really is St. Abby.

There is also the FACT that Abby had flatly refused to look for Eric at all
until that moment, completely shooting down Maggie's plan to hire a
detective. I can see how Carter would wonder what the he** the emergency
was when she couldn't be bothered to even attempt to look for him until that
very moment. Her assertion to Maggie that they had to wait for him to
contact them first was also typical Abby nitwitery.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Carter looks disgusted/incredulous and starts to walk away.

Because, as usual, when it comes to her family, Abby is irrational. And
maybe, considering how incredibly supportive he had been of her and her
family on many, many occasions; he was expecting a little more from her than
he got in his time of need.

Abby

Post by n***@indiana.edu
follows, reiterating that she WILL be back tonight.

And then she WASN'T.

Carter opens the

Post by n***@indiana.edu
door to the lounge and says "Go. Go find your brother. My grandmother
will still be dead tomorrow." He enters the lounge, leaving Abby
looking distressed and upset.

OK, so perhaps Abby didn't expect him to go with her, but she also surely
wasn't telling him the truth when she promised she'd be back that night.
She had no way of knowing that she could get back that night (should've
actually been pretty certain that she couldn't) and she shouldn't have made
the ridiculous statement that she would.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Then, the next episode, there is no indication that Abby hasn't been
around.

Nor is there any indication that she has. We know Carter hired a limo to
bring her to the service, so he, at least, was in contact with her. No
indication that she did anything for him.

Carter tells Jack that she's going to meet them at a

Post by n***@indiana.edu
cemetery, and Abby is getting ready to go, when Eric shows up. (Having
'escaped' from his completely voluntary treatment center.) She does
bring him to the funeral (having no other real options),

How about staying away from the funeral? Locking up the bar in the limo?
Giving the limo driver $20 and asking him to drive her brother around for an
hour rather than sit there parked? As I recall, she took Eric to the ER for
admission right after the funeral, she couldn't have done that on the way?
You don't think one of the ER docs would've gotten a psych hold on Eric for
her? No common sense, alas.

and is

Post by n***@indiana.edu
sitting holding Carter's hand and giving him comforting looks when
Eric gets out of the car and things, of course, go terribly wrong.
When all is over, she makes multiple attempts to apologize and
explain, and Carter just tells her to go away. Twice.

After what happened, what should he have done? Yelled at her? Told her she
was a stupid selfish git? Unlike Abby, I think Carter decided that since he
didn't have anything nice to say, he wouldn't say anything at all. I don't
think Abby or anyone else should expect to be instantly forgiven for doing
something so stupid, no matter how apologetic she is. Just as Luka doesn't
have to forgive her immediately, or ever, for her infidelity.

at she expected him to go to Iowa with her. NO

Post by n***@indiana.edu
suggestion that since Jack was coming, Carter didn't need to stick
around (or she didn't need to come back.) NO, hint from Abby that
"Gamma would still be dead tomorrow."

I never said Abby said it, I said Carter said it in response to what he (and
I) viewed as her lack of concern about it. I still think the convo between
them indicated that Abby expected he would go to Iowa with her, but concede
she didn't actually say it.

Just a clear case of two people

Post by n***@indiana.edu
who needed her, and she had to choose the one who, at that moment, had
the most pressing needs. (She was, presumably, supposed to leave Eric
sitting in the truck stop for 4-5 days until after the funeral?) If
anything, it was Carter who was acting (not completely without cause)
like a petulant brat.

At the time, I discussed how one can get help from local authorities for the
mentally ill. I don't think Carter expected her to leave Eric sitting in the
truck stop, he just expected her to use some common sense and logic to get
him help instead of insisting that she was the only one who could do it.
She does it repeatedly with her family, apparently due to her need to play
the martyr, and, pretty much every time, it ends in disaster, as it did this
time, too.

Carter was entitled to feel what he was feeling at that moment. Abby has
had far more episodes of petulant brattiness over the years than he has. He
also had witnessed once again how incredibly badly Abby handles her family
issues and, this time, it ruined a solemn and important event that was
important to him.

(Oh, and that episode was also a good example of Abby caring about her
patient -- when she's doing a very good job of calming the psychotic
patient, telling him that she's there to 'Keep him safe. That's what I
do. I keep people safe.")
Yeah, because the viewers all needed that great big ole anvil to drop on our
heads so we would realize that Abby is just the bestest ever. Great job of
keeping Eric safe, there, Abs. Refusing to search for him when he was
missing, leaving him alone in a limo stocked with booze. Right up there
with driving suicidal Maggie cross country in a convertible.

Sharon

sharon

2007-12-12 03:52:01 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Then, the next episode, there is no indication that Abby hasn't been
around.

Forget to mention that in the next eppy, just a few days later, we discover
that Abby has returned with Eric in tow and managed to get him admitted to
some sort of treatment program. That isn't a quick and easy job, it
undoubtedly took at least a day to accomplish. Or are we supposed to
presume that Eric flew back on his own, located his own psychiatric
facility, made an appointment for evaluation and then got himself admitted
all by himself? I think there's fair indication that Abby was around, but
not so much for Carter.

Sharon

Sharon Too

2007-12-12 04:44:36 UTC

Post by sharon
Forget to mention that in the next eppy, just a few days later, we
discover that Abby has returned with Eric in tow and managed to get him
admitted to some sort of treatment program. That isn't a quick and easy
job, it undoubtedly took at least a day to accomplish. Or are we supposed
to presume that Eric flew back on his own, located his own psychiatric
facility, made an appointment for evaluation and then got himself admitted
all by himself? I think there's fair indication that Abby was around, but
not so much for Carter.

I think that a part of the problem is that tptb (I believe) are writing this
entire Abby fanfic with the assumption that the viewers are so in awe of
Abby with just the right amount of pity and sympathy that they will assume
themselves that off screen Abby is doing everything she can for Carter, her
family, friends and mankind in general.

Unfortunately for them there is a growing contingent of us that aren't
buying into that fantasy.

Just my point of view.

-sharontoo

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-13 14:40:46 UTC

Post by sharon
snip

You can't have it both ways. "If we didn't see it, it didn't happen"
has to mean that we can't know EITHER way. So you can't 'know' that
Abby wasn't available/supportive any more than I can 'know' that she
was.

There was

Post by sharon
no indication that Gamma's funeral was delayed for a week after her death,
which would be an unusually long interval, not that it matters.

I didn't remember the exact timeframe. Once I rewatched, they said
3-4 days. (Jack told the lawyer he'd flown in '3 days ago.')

.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
So, I rewatched "Things Change" last night. And, not surprsingly, your
memories of it/take on it bear precious little resemblence to what
happened on screen.

Lordy, you are a glutton for punishment! I haven't seen it since it aired,
don't have it on tape.

I would say then that you have an amazing memory for an episode you
saw once ... almost 5 years ago. Except of course that your memories
are not that accurate.

Post by sharon
OK, so my first point, that Abby and Carter were looking for one another,
and didn't bump into each other randomly was correct. I was also correct in
my recollection that there was some initial confusion as to what the other
was referring to initially. I didn't see Abby's look as so much shocked
and distressed on Carter's behalf as she was that Gamma had kicked it at a
rather inconvenient time for her.

So you can read her mind? "Distressed look" on her face was pretty
obvious. Exactly what she was distressed about would indeed have to
left to the viewer, since there is no dialogue, beyond Abby's "I'm so
sorry. Nobody told me." (Which, upon a second 're-view' was said IN
the trauma room, immediately after hearing the news. Not out in the
hall.)

Oh.... maybe she figured that, since Eric was stranded somewhere in
Iowa, that he was probably homeless. And she'd had enough experience
with homeless, mentally ill people (through her job) to suspect that
he probably hadn't bathed/changed his clothes in a while. So, to spare
the other people who would be stuck on a plane with him for a while,
she took a moment to toss a clean change of clothes into her bag? (We
saw no evidence that she had packed any clothes for herself.)

She was clearly lying so

Post by sharon
Carter wouldn't question her decision, she never planned to come back that
night,. Also, the 'back rub' (which I recalled as rubbing his arm/hand for a
moment) lasted no more than a few seconds, while she spent the majority of
the scene with her hand outstretched, impatiently awaiting the prescriptions
that he shouldn't have been writing in the first place.

Again. You remember incorrectly. Her hand was NEVER
'outstretched.' (Unless you are referring to the moments when she is
removing her gloves and throwing them in the trash.) She rubs his
upper arm/shoulder/back the whole time he is talking about Gamma. Then
her hands are either at her sides, in her pockets, or out of shot.
(Due to the wide screen format they are sometimes cut off, but unless
she has rubber hoses for forearms, they could not possibly be
'outstretched'.) She doesn't reach for the prescription until AFTER
Carter writes it, tears it off the pad, and hands it to her.

Again, incorrect. It was dark when she arrived at the diner. We never
saw her leave, so we don't know exactly what time it was, but since
Carter had been talking to Jack on the phone about 'are you sure you
can make the 5:30 flight .... and Jack is in Boston, so it's well
before 4:30 in Chicago at that point ... it's probable that Abby left
in the late afternoon and planned to get the last flight back to
Chicago. (And the issues with the plan have much less to do with Abby,
or this particular scenario, than with the way things work in the
ERverse. In that reality, not only are beds always available in
treatment programs at a moment's notice, but post 9/11 rules for air
travelers do not apply. (No mandatory 2 hour check-in.) And flights
come and go from Chicago at hours much later than IRL. (A few
episodes later, Carter catches a 'midnight' flight to Paris, (not even
leaving County until after 9 p.m.) and still later, Gillian leaves
Luka's at 10 p.m. to catch a plane to Montreal.)

assuming that her mentally ill brother had stayed at a diner

Post by sharon
for hours and hours (and that the management let him) waiting for her to
show up

And the dialogue did indeed support this. Eric says, "I wasn't sure
you would come." and Abby says "I wasn't sure you would still be
here." (It's also very possible [though again, we didn't see it, so it
didn't happen...] that Abby had called Eric back to finish their phone
conversation that was interrupted when James grabbed her, to assure
him that she would make every effort to get there. And even if she
didn't call back, the dialogue does indicate that Eric had asked her
to come for him.

and then figured they'd catch a nonexistent middle of the night

Post by sharon
flight back from Iowa. That Eric was still there and was actually willing
to return with her without much fuss was a miracle in modern times, I guess
she really is St. Abby.

No evidence that it was 'the middle of the night.' More like late
evening. Neither Eric nor Abby looks particularly exhausted, and when
Abby calls Carter to tell him they missed the flight, she says she'll
call him again 'later.' (Not 'in the morning' or 'tomorrow', but
'later.' Surely she doesn't plan to call him back at 2 or 3 a.m.)
(And while we don't see it on the screen, the script side mentions
'take out containers on the bedside table.' Chinese restauratns
usually aren't open in the middle of the night.)

Post by sharon
There is also the FACT that Abby had flatly refused to look for Eric at all
until that moment, completely shooting down Maggie's plan to hire a
detective. I can see how Carter would wonder what the he** the emergency
was when she couldn't be bothered to even attempt to look for him until that
very moment.

NOW she knows where he is. It's not a question of searching for a
person who could be ANYWHERE in the world. She has a phone number and
an address, and he had asked her to come. THAT"S the emergency.

Post by sharon
Because, as usual, when it comes to her family, Abby is irrational.

And

Post by sharon
maybe, considering how incredibly supportive he had been of her and her
family on many, many occasions; he was expecting a little more from her than
he got in his time of need.

Strangly enough, in the episode JUST before this one, Carter had
proposed, and indicated that he's more than willing to take on her
crazy family, if it will let him have her as well.

Post by sharon
Abby> follows, reiterating that she WILL be back tonight.
And then she WASN'T.

She was supposed to charter a plane? (She could have rented a car,
but given the distance, she wouldn't have gotten back more than a
couple of hours sooner.)

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Then, the next episode, there is no indication that Abby hasn't been
around.

Nor is there any indication that she has. We know Carter hired a limo to
bring her to the service, so he, at least, was in contact with her. No
indication that she did anything for him.

And no indication that she DIDN'T. (Remember what you said above -- if
we didn't see it, it didn't happen.)

Post by sharon
How about staying away from the funeral?

And then you would have chewed her out for not showing up at the
funeral!

Locking up the bar in the limo?

Post by sharon
Giving the limo driver $20 and asking him to drive her brother around for an
hour rather than sit there parked? As I recall, she took Eric to the ER for
admission right after the funeral, she couldn't have done that on the way?
You don't think one of the ER docs would've gotten a psych hold on Eric for
her? No common sense, alas.

She was already late. There is no indication that the hospital was
en-route to the cemetery. She made what seemed to her to be the best
choice at that moment. Both IRL and on dramatic TV, people sometimes
make choices that seem 'best' at the time, but go horribly wrong.

Post by sharon
at she expected him to go to Iowa with her. NO> suggestion that since Jack was coming, Carter didn't need to stick

Post by n***@indiana.edu
around (or she didn't need to come back.) NO, hint from Abby that
"Gamma would still be dead tomorrow."

I never said Abby said it, I said Carter said it in response to what he (and
I) viewed as her lack of concern about it.

Sorry. I misread your original post.

I still think the convo between

Post by sharon
them indicated that Abby expected he would go to Iowa with her, but concede
she didn't actually say it.

If she expected him to go ,why did she ask him to write the scrip in
advance? (THe only possible expectation might have been that when
Carter asks if she can leave right away, and she says "I'm ready now",
maybe she assumed that his readiness to leave himself meant that he
planned to go with her. Once she realized that they were dealing with
two totally different crises, it was VERY clear that she planned to go
alone, and come home as soon as possible.)

Post by sharon
Carter was entitled to feel what he was feeling at that moment.

And so was Abby.

(BTW, there was a scene in the teaser of the original script , set
in the treatment center, the morning of the funeral. Where we see that
the director is already ready to throw Eric out for not following the
rules. So... given that it's been only 3 days, it's pretty obvious
that they were able to find a treatment center and get Eric admitted
VERY quickly, leaving Abby ample time to help/support Carter. Even
without that scene, the 3 day time frame [and Eric's statement that
he'd been cheeking his meds because he didn't feel well on the full
dose] means that they would have found him something very, very
quickly. Or else it's the typical ERverse issue of two separate
timelines for two separate stories.)

Naomi

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-14 09:30:46 UTC

Post by sharon
snip

You can't have it both ways.

Sure we can, when it comes to Abby/Maura, anything goes! This one time,
at band camp, I heard Abby went into a restaurant and ate everything in
the restaurant and they had to close the restaurant. Don't bother
trying to verify my story, because the restaurant was in Canada, and
Abby/Maura forced the Canadian government to erase the memories of all
the witnesses, and destroy all records which would indicate that the
restaurant ever existed. True story.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
"If we didn't see it, it didn't happen"
has to mean that we can't know EITHER way. So you can't 'know' that
Abby wasn't available/supportive any more than I can 'know' that she
was.

sharon(s) doesn't 'know'. The voices do. The hate does. I'm afraid
that sharon(s) is more machine than man now, twisted and evil.

But that's beside the point. Here's something we *do* know: It was
determined by the Warren Commission that Abby/Maura was on the Grassy
Knoll at the time of the Kennedy Assassination. She can clearly be seen
on frames 298-312 of the Zapruder film. The Commission was not able to
determine if she was the mysterious "second shooter", but I think we can
safely surmise that she was. Don't try to verify this information,
because it's in the unpublished supporting documents that are sealed
until 2017. Sealed in Canada.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
There was

Post by sharon
no indication that Gamma's funeral was delayed for a week after her death,
which would be an unusually long interval, not that it matters.

I didn't remember the exact timeframe.

sharon(s) did. Oh wait, no she didn't.

FACT: Abby/Maura is so mean she once shot a man for snoring too loud.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Once I rewatched, they said
3-4 days. (Jack told the lawyer he'd flown in '3 days ago.')

So, a mere HALF a week. I believe I speak for The Many Voices Of
Sharon(s) when I say: Game. Set. Match.

And...... sarcasm off.

FACT: Abby/Maura sabotaged the oxygen tanks of the Apollo 13 Service
Module, causing them to explode en route to the moon, forcing the
mission to be scrubbed, and nearly killing the three astronauts on
board. As a known Communist sympathizer, she did this in an attempt to
buy the USSR time to catch up in their space program.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
So, I rewatched "Things Change" last night. And, not surprsingly, your
memories of it/take on it bear precious little resemblence to what
happened on screen.

Lordy, you are a glutton for punishment! I haven't seen it since it aired,
don't have it on tape.

I would say then that you have an amazing memory for an episode you
saw once ... almost 5 years ago. Except of course that your memories
are not that accurate.

Hehhehheheheee, DIG! What she doesn't remember, she backfills with hate.

Hate of a fictional character.

FACT: The Bobby Darin song "Mac The Knife" is based on the true story of
Abby/Maura.

So you can read her mind?

"I didn't say that! You said that! Did I say that? I didn't say that! I
think that's so funny that you think I said that! I didn't say that!"

That was sharon(s) "Nathan Thurm" voice (q.v. Martin Short's nervous
laywer character).

Post by n***@indiana.edu
"Distressed look" on her face was pretty
obvious.

Indeed sharon(s). I "don't know how you missed it."

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHHHHHAHHHAHAHHAAAA!!!!!!!

FACT: Abby/Maura is Hooked On both Phonics and Oldies.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Exactly what she was distressed about would indeed have to
left to the viewer, since there is no dialogue, beyond Abby's "I'm so
sorry. Nobody told me." (Which, upon a second 're-view' was said IN
the trauma room, immediately after hearing the news. Not out in the
hall.)

Of course she said it in the trauma room, but she didn't mean it, even
if she didn't make a frowny face, which I maintain she did, because I
can remember such details better than you even though I supposedly last
saw the episode five years ago and you watched it like a day ago. I
hate Abby ever so much. If only Abby weren't on "E.R.", my life would
be worth living. Crazy? Me? Hello, my name is sharon(s).

Pshht, NOW who's stretching! Come on Naomi. We all know full well that
the only reason she went home to pack a bag was to pack it full of mens'
clothes that were two sizes too small, so she could force Eric to wear
them and be uncomfortable on the long plane ride home. That's just the
way she is. Abby is mean, because Maura Tierney is, and they're the
same person.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
She was clearly lying so

Again. You remember incorrectly.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAHHAHHAAA!!!!

WOW SHARON(S) YOU'RE REALLY BATTIN' 1000!!! Good thing the season's
effectively over so you can skulk away and hope people forget your
psychiatric disorders.

FACT: Abby can't afford the ticket back from Suffragette City.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Her hand was NEVER
'outstretched.' (Unless you are referring to the moments when she is
removing her gloves and throwing them in the trash.) She rubs his
upper arm/shoulder/back the whole time he is talking about Gamma. Then
her hands are either at her sides, in her pockets, or out of shot.
(Due to the wide screen format they are sometimes cut off, but unless
she has rubber hoses for forearms, they could not possibly be
'outstretched'.) She doesn't reach for the prescription until AFTER
Carter writes it, tears it off the pad, and hands it to her.

Um... well... but she literally CLAWED that scrip out of his hand! I
know, because I read and/or confabulated and/or hallucinated an
interview with Carter where he mentioned that Abby/MT sharpened her
nails specifically so she would scratch him in that scene. He had to
get forty five stitches on his wrist and two transfusions because he
lost so much blood. He only needed one, but Abby is a also vampire, and
she drank all the blood from the first transfusion.

Again, incorrect.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAAAA!!

OMG NAOMI STOP, YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FACT: Abby/Maura's the kind of person you meet at certain dismal dull
affairs. Center of a crowd, talking much too loud running up and down
the stairs. Well, it seems to me that she has seen too much in too few
years. And though she's tried she just can't hide her eyes are edged
with tears.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
It was dark when she arrived at the diner. We never
saw her leave, so we don't know exactly what time it was, but since
Carter had been talking to Jack on the phone about 'are you sure you
can make the 5:30 flight .... and Jack is in Boston, so it's well
before 4:30 in Chicago at that point ... it's probable that Abby left
in the late afternoon and planned to get the last flight back to
Chicago. (And the issues with the plan have much less to do with Abby,
or this particular scenario, than with the way things work in the
ERverse. In that reality, not only are beds always available in
treatment programs at a moment's notice, but post 9/11 rules for air
travelers do not apply. (No mandatory 2 hour check-in.) And flights
come and go from Chicago at hours much later than IRL. (A few
episodes later, Carter catches a 'midnight' flight to Paris, (not even
leaving County until after 9 p.m.) and still later, Gillian leaves
Luka's at 10 p.m. to catch a plane to Montreal.)

And *who* may I ask is responsible for this unreality of said "ERverse"?
Exactly: Abby Tierney/Maura Lockhart.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
assuming that her mentally ill brother had stayed at a diner

Post by sharon
for hours and hours (and that the management let him) waiting for her to
show up

sharon(s), some friendly advice: give up while you're UTTERLY AND
COMPLETELY SERVED.

FACT: In rock/paper/scissors, Abby/Maura always picks rock.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
and then figured they'd catch a nonexistent middle of the night

Post by sharon
flight back from Iowa. That Eric was still there and was actually willing
to return with her without much fuss was a miracle in modern times, I guess
she really is St. Abby.

WAIT WAIT WAIT?!?! "SCRIPT"??!? ***SHARON(S)*** IS OUR RESIDENT SCRIPT
EXPERT!!!! WHY WOULD SHARON(S) NOT HAVE KNOWN THIS?!?!??!?!?! I mean
seriously, she knows that every single scene containing Abby gets
mysteriously rewritten before filming, so how could she have missed this?!?!

NOW she knows where he is.

Don't confuse sharon(s) with the FACTs Naomi!

FACT: While Abby/Maura can do The Frug, The Robocop, and The Freddie,
she cannot do The Smurf.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
It's not a question of searching for a
person who could be ANYWHERE in the world. She has a phone number and
an address, and he had asked her to come. THAT"S the emergency.

Well, that scene was totally rewritten anyway.

;-)))

Post by sharon
Because, as usual, when it comes to her family, Abby is irrational.

And

Post by sharon
maybe, considering how incredibly supportive he had been of her and her
family on many, many occasions; he was expecting a little more from her than
he got in his time of need.

Strangly enough, in the episode JUST before this one, Carter had
proposed, and indicated that he's more than willing to take on her
crazy family, if it will let him have her as well.

Hell even I remember that. Maybe it's not "the schitz" sharon(s), maybe
it's the Alzheimer's kicking in.

FACT: In a freak mishap, Ranger 3 and its pilot Captain Abby/Maura
Tierney are blown out of their trajectory into an orbit which freezes
her life support system and returns Abby/Maura Tierney to Earth 500
years later.

Post by sharon
Abby> follows, reiterating that she WILL be back tonight.
And then she WASN'T.

She was supposed to charter a plane?

No. The least she could have done is PURCHASE a plane, get a pilot's
license, fly her own skank-ass back to Chi-town, present the plane to
Carter as a "please forgive me" gift, and then jump off the John Hancock
building.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
(She could have rented a car,
but given the distance, she wouldn't have gotten back more than a
couple of hours sooner.)

And if she did rent a car, I'd bitch that she didn't take a plane.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Then, the next episode, there is no indication that Abby hasn't been
around.

Nor is there any indication that she has. We know Carter hired a limo to
bring her to the service, so he, at least, was in contact with her. No
indication that she did anything for him.

And no indication that she DIDN'T. (Remember what you said above -- if
we didn't see it, it didn't happen.)

Ahhh, the Captain Kirk School of Computer Repair. Exquisite.

Post by sharon
How about staying away from the funeral?

And then you would have chewed her out for not showing up at the
funeral!

Abby didn't even show up at the funeral? What a bitch. Actually now
that you mention it, I recall reading an article (it was in Canada,
don't bother trying to find it) that Abby/Maura was a suspect in Gamma's
death, so I don't blame her for staying away, the skanky ho.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Locking up the bar in the limo?

Yep. Like that one time when sharon(s) decided to (yet again) claim a
bunch of crap about her arch-nemesis Abby Lockhart/Maura Tierney, and
then somebody from the newsgroup went back and rewatched the episode to
check on each of sharon(s) claims, and it ended up that sharon(s) was
talking complete crap. You guys remember that? Man, that was a hoot!

Post by sharon
at she expected him to go to Iowa with her. NO> suggestion that since Jack was coming, Carter didn't need to stick

Post by n***@indiana.edu
around (or she didn't need to come back.) NO, hint from Abby that
"Gamma would still be dead tomorrow."

I never said Abby said it, I said Carter said it in response to what he (and
I) viewed as her lack of concern about it.

Sorry. I misread your original post.

That's probably to sharon(s)'s benefit. Sharon(s)'s posts contain a
much higher percentage of factual information if they're read incorrectly.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I still think the convo between

Post by sharon
them indicated that Abby expected he would go to Iowa with her, but concede
she didn't actually say it.

If she expected him to go ,why did she ask him to write the scrip in
advance?

DON'T WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION SHARON(S), ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Post by n***@indiana.edu
(THe only possible expectation might have been that when
Carter asks if she can leave right away, and she says "I'm ready now",
maybe she assumed that his readiness to leave himself meant that he
planned to go with her. Once she realized that they were dealing with
two totally different crises, it was VERY clear that she planned to go
alone, and come home as soon as possible.)

Post by sharon
Carter was entitled to feel what he was feeling at that moment.

And so was Abby.

No, she wasn't. It ends up that Abby/MT is a Vulcan (from the planet
Vulcan), and they're not allowed to have any emotions. It's totally
true, I read it on a Bazooka Joe bubble gum wrapper. Yeah, it was a
special "E.R." Bazooka Joe wrapper limited edition, only released in
Canada, so don't bother trying to find one to confirm my wild statement.
Even so Naomi, all the signs pointing at Abby/Maura's Vulcanness have
been there since the pilot, I "don't know how you missed it."

Post by n***@indiana.edu
(BTW, there was a scene in the teaser of the original script , set
in the treatment center, the morning of the funeral. Where we see that
the director is already ready to throw Eric out for not following the
rules. So... given that it's been only 3 days, it's pretty obvious
that they were able to find a treatment center and get Eric admitted
VERY quickly, leaving Abby ample time to help/support Carter.

Sharon(s), why did you neglect to mention this omission from the script?
You never neglect to mention the "script changes" that make Abby not
look like the monster you need her to be.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Even
without that scene, the 3 day time frame [and Eric's statement that
he'd been cheeking his meds because he didn't feel well on the full
dose] means that they would have found him something very, very
quickly. Or else it's the typical ERverse issue of two separate
timelines for two separate stories.)

FACT: sharon(s) is such an obsessed-with-Abby/MT liar it's pathetic.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Naomi

unknown

2007-12-14 19:46:27 UTC

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:30:46 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
But that's beside the point. Here's something we *do* know: It was
determined by the Warren Commission that Abby/Maura was on the Grassy
Knoll at the time of the Kennedy Assassination.

And here I thought I heard every theory on the Kennedy
Assination on that planet. As someone who still vivdidly remembers
that fateful day I thought I had heard every theory.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: sharon(s) is such an obsessed-with-Abby/MT liar it's pathetic.

This is one viewer who also is not a fan of Abby.

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-14 22:24:34 UTC

Post by unknown
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:30:46 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

And here I thought I heard every theory on the Kennedy
Assination on that planet. As someone who still vivdidly remembers
that fateful day I thought I had heard every theory.

It's not a theory, it's a FACT! Why do you think all those other
theories exist? Yep, to obscure the truth: the truth that Abby, a
fictional character, assassinated the president of the United States!

If people were to know the things sharon(s) know about Abby/Maura, it
would all fall apart.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: sharon(s) is such an obsessed-with-Abby/MT liar it's pathetic.

This is one viewer who also is not a fan of Abby.

I don't care for Uncle Jesse, but you don't see me rewriting scripts to
fit my Jessehate-centric world view.

unknown

2007-12-15 00:37:45 UTC

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:24:34 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
It's not a theory, it's a FACT! Why do you think all those other
theories exist? Yep, to obscure the truth: the truth that Abby, a
fictional character, assassinated the president of the United States!
If people were to know the things sharon(s) know about Abby/Maura, it
would all fall apart.

You do realize that nobody ever heard of MT or ER when Kennedy
was assasinated?

I've heard just about every theory on the planet, never heard this
one. I will tell you though I get the distinct impression that
Ted Kennedy and others know exactly who is behind the assasinations
and is not saying for whatever reason. The family is against
any further investigations.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: sharon(s) is such an obsessed-with-Abby/MT liar it's pathetic.

This is one viewer who also is not a fan of Abby.

I don't care for Uncle Jesse, but you don't see me rewriting scripts to
fit my Jessehate-centric world view.

Uncle Jesse hasn't jumped the shark, Abby on the other hand has jumped
the shark big time.

There is a lot more history with Abby than there is for Uncle Jesse.

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-15 20:17:14 UTC

Post by unknown
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:24:34 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

You do realize that nobody ever heard of MT or ER when Kennedy
was assasinated?

Exactly. Who better to carry out such a high-profile hit than a
completely unknown fictional character that hasn't even been invented
yet? We're through the looking glass here people.

Post by unknown
I've heard just about every theory on the planet, never heard this
one. I will tell you though I get the distinct impression that
Ted Kennedy and others know exactly who is behind the assasinations
and is not saying for whatever reason. The family is against
any further investigations.

Because they know it's Abby, and they know that if they say anything,
this fictional character will be coming after them next!

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: sharon(s) is such an obsessed-with-Abby/MT liar it's pathetic.

This is one viewer who also is not a fan of Abby.

I don't care for Uncle Jesse, but you don't see me rewriting scripts to
fit my Jessehate-centric world view.

Uncle Jesse hasn't jumped the shark,

Au contraire, he jumps said shark on each and every appearance. He's
even got the motorcycle to do it. My point stands: I am able to
separate reality from fantasy, and will never feel the need to
confabulate scripts that never existed to fit some pathetic world-view
based on hatred of a fictional character. Sharon(s) is unable to
separate fact from fantasy, and hence must engage in such bizarre
confabulatory behavior just to make it through the day. She would be
pitiable if she wasn't such an unsympathetic character herself.

Post by unknown
Abby on the other hand has jumped
the shark big time.
There is a lot more history with Abby than there is for Uncle Jesse.

And I'm sure this is exactly the logic that sharon(s) use to justify in
her own mind her bizarre behavior such as droning on and on about
scripts that never existed but were "extensively rewritten" before
filming, how she "don't know how you missed" things that never happened
on the show, how her life would be so much better if Abby/MT had never
existed, etc etc etc. Like I said, it'd be sad if it was happening to
any other person, but seeing as it's sharon(s), I think we can all agree
it's really kinda funny.

Sharon Too

2007-12-14 22:43:13 UTC

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: sharon(s) is such an obsessed-with-Abby/MT liar it's pathetic.

Obsessed is a strong word for making observations.

Post by unknown
This is one viewer who also is not a fan of Abby.

You must be obsessed too ;-)

unknown

2007-12-14 20:24:55 UTC

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:30:46 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: Abby/Maura is Hooked On both Phonics and Oldies.

As someone who listens to no music newser than the 1970s I have
to ask what is wrong with that?

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
Of course she said it in the trauma room, but she didn't mean it, even
if she didn't make a frowny face, which I maintain she did, because I
can remember such details better than you even though I supposedly last
saw the episode five years ago and you watched it like a day ago. I
hate Abby ever so much. If only Abby weren't on "E.R.", my life would
be worth living. Crazy? Me? Hello, my name is sharon(s).

One of the problems I have with Abby is I know alot of top notch
women in the working world, both in and out of medicine who
have their act together. I find Abby to be an insult to these
women who have their act together and do an excellent job every day.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: In a freak mishap, Ranger 3 and its pilot Captain Abby/Maura
Tierney are blown out of their trajectory into an orbit which freezes
her life support system and returns Abby/Maura Tierney to Earth 500
years later.

And after those 500 years the planet will worship Saint Abby.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
No. The least she could have done is PURCHASE a plane, get a pilot's
license, fly her own skank-ass back to Chi-town, present the plane to
Carter as a "please forgive me" gift, and then jump off the John Hancock
building.

And here I thougth she was supposed to build the plane, then get her
pilots liscesne, then fly to Chicago in the middle of a severe
thunderstorm, then land the plane safely after is struck by
lightning, and bursts into flams, then rush into the ER to save
every single survivor of the fiery plane crash.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
And if she did rent a car, I'd bitch that she didn't take a plane.

Why would she have to rent a car? The writers would have Super Abby
duck into a phone booth, then change into costume, and fly off
to help all those who need her help.

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-14 22:16:45 UTC

Post by unknown
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:30:46 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: Abby/Maura is Hooked On both Phonics and Oldies.

As someone who listens to no music newser than the 1970s I have
to ask what is wrong with that?

Since you are not Abby/Maura, absolutely nothing is wrong with that!
Don't you see?!?

Do you find the Abby character such an insult that you:

- Cannot separate the character of Abby from the actress portraying her?
- Confabulate entire scripts that never existed, just to fit your
Abbyhate-centric world-view?
- Cut the eyes and mouth out of promotional photos of Maura Tierney and
wear them as a mask?

If you exhibit any of these symptoms, you may be suffering from
Psychotic Sharonosis. Talk to your doctor (a real one) about voluntary
commitment - some sharon(s) have been known to lead semi-productive
lives in rigidly-structured, TV-less environments.

And after those 500 years the planet will worship Saint Abby.

Not if sharon(s) can help it! No, as long as sharon(s) remains tireless
and vigilant in her one-pretend-doctor campaign of craziness against the
tyranny of this one particular fictional character, the Vatican will
have no choice but to NOT canonize Abby/Maura!

Of course she was. But the scene was extensively rewritten at the
demand of Maura Tierney, to make Abby look like more of a bitch. True
story, I heard it from a lady pushing a shopping cart full of cats. In
Canada. So don't bother trying to verify my story, because you can't.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
And if she did rent a car, I'd bitch that she didn't take a plane.

Why would she have to rent a car? The writers would have Super Abby
duck into a phone booth, then change into costume, and fly off
to help all those who need her help.

And I would still bitch about it. Why? Because my name is sharon(s), I
cannot distinguish fiction from reality, and my hate for Abby/Maura is
all I have left. To the last, I grapple with Abby; From Hell's heart, I
stab at Abby; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Abby.

unknown

2007-12-15 01:16:32 UTC

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:16:45 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
- Cannot separate the character of Abby from the actress portraying her?

I can not seperate the character from the writers who create this
character that is a bafoon.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
Of course she was. But the scene was extensively rewritten at the
demand of Maura Tierney, to make Abby look like more of a bitch. True
story, I heard it from a lady pushing a shopping cart full of cats. In
Canada. So don't bother trying to verify my story, because you can't.

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
And if she did rent a car, I'd bitch that she didn't take a plane.

Why would she have to rent a car? The writers would have Super Abby
duck into a phone booth, then change into costume, and fly off
to help all those who need her help.

The last thing i'm going to do here is defend Abby. For me she
is probably the most hated character on all of tv.

The only character I hate more is Billie from Charmed,
the woman who signle handedly blew up Charmed.

Cory

2007-12-15 16:14:53 UTC

In article <***@4ax.com>, Gabrielle
<Don't bother....send to usenet> says...

Post by unknown
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:30:46 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: Abby/Maura is Hooked On both Phonics and Oldies.

As someone who listens to no music newser than the 1970s I have
to ask what is wrong with that?

Well, I can tell ya this much... you're missing out on some utterly
kick-ass *80's* music, *that* much I know. ;-)

I'm just sayin' is all...

I'm as much a fan of the (also) kick-ass 50's and 60's music as the next
guy is. Ask any of my friends.

--- Cory

P.S. - We try not to feed trolls like DTH too much around here.

--
401 Days until America's National Nightmare is over...

Karen E.

2007-12-15 17:07:39 UTC

Post by Cory
<Don't bother....send to usenet> says...

Post by unknown
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:30:46 GMT, Dropping The Helicopter

Post by Dropping The Helicopter
FACT: Abby/Maura is Hooked On both Phonics and Oldies.

As someone who listens to no music newser than the 1970s I have
to ask what is wrong with that?

Well, I can tell ya this much... you're missing out on some utterly
kick-ass *80's* music, *that* much I know. ;-)
I'm just sayin' is all...

I'm mostly stuck in the seventies, music-wise, but I keep an open
mind.Thus, the most played song on my iPod is Cobrastyle by the
Teddybears. Awesome.

Karen E.

sharon

2007-12-16 02:41:02 UTC

Post by n***@indiana.edu
You can't have it both ways. "If we didn't see it, it didn't happen"
has to mean that we can't know EITHER way. So you can't 'know' that
Abby wasn't available/supportive any more than I can 'know' that she
was.

All depends on whether you're wearing your Abby colored glasses or not.
I've seen enough of Abby on the show over the years to know that the world
revolves around her and her ability to be available and supportive of others
is very limited. Witness Luka and his dying father. Recall she was also
drinking during this time period with Carter, so the 'Abby was drinking, so
of course she couldn't care at all about Luka' excuse could be used here,
too. Or the fact that Abby really doesn't have the ability to empathize.

And I most certainly can 'know' that Abby spent a goodly portion of the 3
days before the funeral tending to her brother because we were told he had
returned with her and been admitted to a mental health facility. Unless
we're supposed to think that magical elves and fairies handled it for her.
Or Abby did all these things while simultaneously offering Carter 'support'
via her cell phone, there aren't that many hours in the day. We've also
seen Abby's single minded obsession with her family in these instances and
that she is incapable of focusing on anything else when she's in martyr
mode.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I didn't remember the exact timeframe. Once I rewatched, they said
3-4 days. (Jack told the lawyer he'd flown in '3 days ago.')

So, in fact, my memory for an eppy from 5 years ago was correct.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
So, I rewatched "Things Change" last night. And, not surprsingly, your
memories of it/take on it bear precious little resemblence to what
happened on screen.

I'd say both of our POV are colored by our feelings for Abby.

Post by sharon
Lordy, you are a glutton for punishment! I haven't seen it since it aired,
don't have it on tape.

I would say then that you have an amazing memory for an episode you
saw once ... almost 5 years ago. Except of course that your memories
are not that accurate.

Actually, they weren't any less accurate than yours. At least until you
rewatched the eppy scene by scene a couple days ago ;)

OK, so when I presume that Abby's 'distressed' look was because Gamma's
death was messing up her plans, I am reading Abby's mind, but when you
presume it is because she is feeling sad for Carter's loss is
because you know what she's thinking? I would also disagree that her look
of distress was 'obvious'. Different viewers interpret the same scenes
differently, just as in real life. What looked like 'distress' to you
appeared to be the same sullen, constipated expression MT wears in most of
her scenes as Abby. Abby has a similar expression when she has a hangnail
or when her coffee is cold. MT's range as an actress is pretty limited,
IMO. 'She runs the gamut from A to B' as Dorothy Parker once said of a far
better actress.

so darned sure she was coming back

Post by sharon
immediately, why did she go home and pack a bag?

As I recall, she had a toothbrush for Eric, amongst other things (or at
least he asked). In any event, whether she packed or not, her promise to
Carter that she'd be back that night was clearly untrue as she was already
hunkered down in a motel for the night.

r incorrectly. Her hand was NEVER

Post by n***@indiana.edu
'outstretched.' (Unless you are referring to the moments when she is
removing her gloves and throwing them in the trash.) She rubs his
upper arm/shoulder/back the whole time he is talking about Gamma. Then
her hands are either at her sides, in her pockets, or out of shot.
(Due to the wide screen format they are sometimes cut off, but unless
she has rubber hoses for forearms, they could not possibly be
'outstretched'.) She doesn't reach for the prescription until AFTER
Carter writes it, tears it off the pad, and hands it to her.

She was holding her other hand palm up, waiting for the rx which was
apparently cut off in the wide screen. I don't have the tape, but I found
discussion of the eppy elsewhere and I wasn't the only one to notice it or
to notice that she was obviously distracted and seemed in a hurry to get it
and be on her way.

's flying in ... You

Post by n***@indiana.edu
haven't seen your brother in months, why do you have to go now?" Abby
explains that he's off his meds, she can't reach Maggie, and if she
doesn't go now, he may disappear again.

Again, incorrect. It was dark when she arrived at the diner.

We never

Post by n***@indiana.edu
saw her leave, so we don't know exactly what time it was, but since
Carter had been talking to Jack on the phone about 'are you sure you
can make the 5:30 flight .... and Jack is in Boston, so it's well
before 4:30 in Chicago at that point ... it's probable that Abby left
in the late afternoon and planned to get the last flight back to
Chicago.

Once again, all presumably and probably. You're right, we don't know what
time she left, it might've been night, it might've been late afternoon.
Your speculation is just that. Doesn't matter since it doesn't change the
fact that she didn't come back that night as promised and that anyone with
any common sense would never have made such a promise to their distraught
boyfriend. We also know, that, even if she left the ER while it was still
daylight, she didn't go directly to the airport, she went to her place, or
Carter's, and packed a bag for her brother and got the prescriptions filled.
If it was already mid to late afternoon in Chicago, which Carter's concern
that his father would miss his flight indicates, Abby would've had to move
faster than greased lightning to get to a drugstore, go home, pack a bag and
catch a flight before evening. BTW, this eppy takes place in mid May,
during daylight savings time, which means it wouldn't have gotten dark in
Iowa much before 9 PM. My point being that the timeframe Abby gave Carter;
that she would leave the ER, go home and pack, get to the airport, fly to
Iowa, get to wherever Eric was, get back to the airport and get home that
evening was completely ridiculous which is why Carter reacted as he did to
her assertion that she'd be home that night.

(And the issues with the plan have much less to do with Abby,

Post by n***@indiana.edu
or this particular scenario, than with the way things work in the
ERverse. In that reality, not only are beds always available in
treatment programs at a moment's notice, but post 9/11 rules for air
travelers do not apply. (No mandatory 2 hour check-in.) And flights
come and go from Chicago at hours much later than IRL. (A few
episodes later, Carter catches a 'midnight' flight to Paris, (not even
leaving County until after 9 p.m.) and still later, Gillian leaves
Luka's at 10 p.m. to catch a plane to Montreal.)

Never been to Europe, huh? Many flights to Europe leave later in the
evening so they can land in the morning. In any event, apparently there
wasn't a late night flight back from Iowa or Abby would've been on it, isn't
that the point?

Post by n***@indiana.edu
assuming that her mentally ill brother had stayed at a diner

Post by sharon
for hours and hours (and that the management let him) waiting for her to
show up

Or at least to help him somehow, whether the only answer was for Abby to fly
to Iowa herself immediately and fetch him is debatable. But typical Abby,
"I am the ONLY one who can help him, I am the ONLY one who cares. Poor
widdle me!" She can be reliably counted upon to choose the option most
likely to result in drama and to call attention to herself and her
martyrdom.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
No evidence that it was 'the middle of the night.' More like late
evening. Neither Eric nor Abby looks particularly exhausted, and when
Abby calls Carter to tell him they missed the flight, she says she'll
call him again 'later.' (Not 'in the morning' or 'tomorrow', but
'later.' Surely she doesn't plan to call him back at 2 or 3 a.m.)
(And while we don't see it on the screen, the script side mentions
'take out containers on the bedside table.' Chinese restauratns
usually aren't open in the middle of the night.)

Naomi, you cannot have it both ways. A couple of paragraphs ago, you were
promoting middle of the night Iowa-Chicago flights, now it's still early
enought that Abby could call Carter again before bedtime but was still too
late to get a flight to Chicago. I can get flights to Chicago from
Cleveland up until around 11 PM, I presume Iowa, being about the same
distance, would be the same. So, if Abby hadn't been able to catch a plane,
it must've been rather late in the evening. Not that it matters since the
basic point is that Little Miss Wonderful hadn't been able to accomplish her
mission and return home the same night because she ain't a miracle worker.
Maybe she should've gotten some tips from Santa. He gets a lot done in a
single night.

BTW, there's a Chinese restaurant not 5 minutes from my house that is open
until 2 AM. I'd also point out that the food containers simply tell us that
they ate sometime prior to the phone call, they could've been sitting there
on the night stand for hours. You don't know what time it was when she
called nor do you know that her promise to call Carter 'later' meant that
evening. The other thing you don't know is whether Dear Sainted Abby
actually called again as promised. She'd already broken her promise to get
back that night, why would Carter or anyone else expect her to keep her word
and call back 'later'?

NOW she knows where he is. It's not a question of searching for a
person who could be ANYWHERE in the world. She has a phone number and
an address, and he had asked her to come. THAT"S the emergency.

Abby knew where he ditched the plane, where he had last been seen, which was
only a few days after he disappeared. And, yet, she told her mother not to
hire a private detective to look for Eric. The guy had walked away from his
plane in the middle of nowhere, didn't have an endless supply of cash to
support himself, he was also mentally ill. He couldn't have gotten far on
foot in those circumstances, he was not ANYWHERE in the world, and she knew
it. Yet, she didn't even want to try to look. Instead, she let the trail
get cold and wait for a mentally ill man to make the first move apparently
to feed her ego.

I fail to see what was different except that Eric called HER so she could
play the martyr. And that was the emergency, Abby needed to go gallivanting
off herself to get him, a private detective wouldn't have made her the hero
of the story as she needs to be.

snip

e was already late. There is no indication that the hospital was

Post by n***@indiana.edu
en-route to the cemetery. She made what seemed to her to be the best
choice at that moment. Both IRL and on dramatic TV, people sometimes
make choices that seem 'best' at the time, but go horribly wrong.

And, on TV, we can always count on Abby to make the worst possible decisions
in all cases. She's one of those people for whom things never seem to work
out and who cannot see that the reason disaster always befalls her is
because she makes choices that make it inevitable. She brings her misery on
herself because she enjoys being miserable and wants the attention it
brings.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
If she expected him to go ,why did she ask him to write the scrip in
advance?

Because she needed to get it filled in Chicago before she left. How was she
going to find an open drugstore in Iowa in the evening? A lot of pharmacies
won't accept prescriptions written out of state. Even if Carter was going
with her, they needed to get the meds in Chicago. Don't you remember
Sailing Away? I know you read scripts and you know there was a scene that
was cut where Carter couldn't get meds for Maggie in Oklahoma.

(THe only possible expectation might have been that when

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Carter asks if she can leave right away, and she says "I'm ready now",
maybe she assumed that his readiness to leave himself meant that he
planned to go with her. Once she realized that they were dealing with
two totally different crises, it was VERY clear that she planned to go
alone, and come home as soon as possible.)

It was VERY clear to Abby's fans, not to the rest of us. Sort of like how
Abby's fans know for certain that her 'distress' was over Carter's loss and
not her own issues.

atment center, the morning of the funeral. Where we see that

Post by n***@indiana.edu
the director is already ready to throw Eric out for not following the
rules. So... given that it's been only 3 days, it's pretty obvious
that they were able to find a treatment center and get Eric admitted
VERY quickly, leaving Abby ample time to help/support Carter. Even
without that scene, the 3 day time frame [and Eric's statement that
he'd been cheeking his meds because he didn't feel well on the full
dose] means that they would have found him something very, very
quickly. Or else it's the typical ERverse issue of two separate
timelines for two separate stories.)
Naomi

I realize you've never gotten anyone admitted to a psych hospital, so I
understand how you could think it was 'very, very quickly', but, I can
assure you, it took a minimum of the better part of a day, especially if it
was a private facility, as it seemed to be. Also, how did Abby find this
place? Had she done research in advance (possible, except that we're
talking about Abby who is a dimwit)? Wouldn't she have needed to spend some
time on the phone or in person looking for a place before she even got to
the point where he could be admitted?

Sharon

e***@yahoo.com

2007-12-09 03:16:44 UTC

Post by sharon
snip
He said so
himself, that he thought she'd just 'forgotten' how to be married or maybe
had fallen out of love with him. As Luka is prone to do, he figures it must
be his problem, not hers.

Didn't he take off for a foreign country two minutes after they
actually got married? Just checking. Keep in mind that very rarely do
I actually watch the show, sometimes I just need to interrupt the
beautification of Luka.

Seems to me in a situation like that they've barely *been* married.

Naomi

No way 'real' Luka isn't right there with Abby, going to Al-Anon
and counselling, taking care of their child, if that's where he wants to be.

But who says he really wants to do that? It was established long ago
that Luka would pretty much have a baby with anybody, and ten seconds
after he knocks Abby up both of them pretty much seemed to be content
to pretend it was only sunshine and rainbows and kittens from now on,
save for the occasional psychotic stalker. No lingering resentment, no
bitterness, no qualms about having a baby with someone prone to
violent rages and intimidation. No, no problems here! La dee da!

It's not terribly surprising that Luka would seize upon the chance to
get rid of the baby momma and just take the baby. Maybe he realizes
that this whole thing was a bad idea. Actually sticking around and
realistically dealing with his problems, instead of fashioning him to
his latest fantasy, is not Luka's strong suit.

(Hey, it's a great idea to punch out Abby's attacker! That'll never
backfire! Yeah, I'm sure this nice lady who's six months pregnant and
wearing an engagement ring is completely unattached. As long as I
don't ask her any questions about it, that means it's true, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm sure the lying, stealing barmaid who just told me she's
pregnant with my baby wants to settle into domesticity with me right
away, so I'll just start making plans anyway, and there will be no
question about paternity whatsoever. I'm sure my girlfriend will
change her mind about siring me a heir if I just keep nagging her
about it! It''s a FABULOUS idea for me to go and threaten the unstable
guy who tried to sue me and lost! I don't need therapy, I'll just talk
to a prostitute! None of this can ever go wrong!)

Seems to me this whole Luby deal is just another one of his very bad
ideas. The man is nothing if not delusional.

That said, I'm sure they'll end up together, and will enjoy prolonging
his delusions for many years to come.

Ellen K Hursh

2007-12-13 17:40:08 UTC

Post by e***@yahoo.com
Yeah, I'm sure the lying, stealing barmaid who just told me she's
pregnant with my baby wants to settle into domesticity with me right
away, so I'll just start making plans anyway, and there will be no
question about paternity whatsoever.

Ah ha ha ha... thank you for reminding me of that "I don't know what
happened" line that was such a howler at the time. ("What, they don't
teach that in Croatian med schools?")

Post by e***@yahoo.com
That said, I'm sure they'll end up together, and will enjoy prolonging
his delusions for many years to come.

At least until they wind up as a case file on CSI:Chicago. :)

Paucle

2007-12-07 20:12:00 UTC

In most other instances, isn't the patient unconscious or in some
other way unable to communicate? Here, she was alert, coherent, and
of sound mind and could tell them, "Take it out."

Sharon Too

2007-12-07 23:26:04 UTC

Post by Paucle
In most other instances, isn't the patient unconscious or in some
other way unable to communicate? Here, she was alert, coherent, and
of sound mind and could tell them, "Take it out."

Not always. Though I suspect in the ER she would. I have a friend with CF
who has been on a vent fully aware. This was certainly a dramatic license
thing, I suspect.

Sharon Too

2007-12-07 23:24:07 UTC

Post by unknown
Spoiler space

No need for spoiler space since it has already aired.

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-08 01:46:02 UTC

Paul Bearer wrote:
[]

Post by unknown
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn' the chaplain in a hospital
supposed to be able to handle all religions?

That's the military (US military anyway).

Sharon Too

2007-12-07 23:23:22 UTC

This whole ceremony thing was waaaaaaaaaaaay over done. We litteraly laughed
out loud. I understand the meaning of it and it's a nice thought. But I kept
thinking about what if they had done this years ago? I can just see Mark,
Doug and Carol stroking out as they attempt to squash the hysterical
giggling; Carter, the med student, awkwardly tipping over the bowl of water;
and Benton walking in on it and, without stopping, turning around and
walking right back out.

-Sharontoo
--
*There are no accidents in life*

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I wasn't even going to watch ER last night. I thought VERY hard about
skipping it. I didn't think I could stand to see Luka on his knees
sobbing out his pleas for forgiveness.
But I tuned in. Nothing better to do. (DH was watching something awful
in the bedroom, and I had to stay up while a couple of loads of
laundry did their thing.) And ... to my amazement ... I actually
liked it. Most of it anyway.
The opening scenes were not promising. The stuff with the camel was
definitely one of the top ten Stupidest ER 'Humor' moments ever
filmed. (And that scene also included the now required juvenile
sexual humor, with the intern gawking at Neela's butt, and (a few
minutes later) everyone getting the chance to gawk at Dubenko's.
But, once we got past that part, it mostly worked. The Luka/Abby
stuff, IMO was handled very well. I LOVED the scene in Neela's
apartment. And as for the feared "Luka begging forgiveness" ... it
wasn't actually that way at all. In fact, it made perfect sense from
every viewpoint. Guilt is NOT a rational emotion. People often feel
a sense of guilt when something terrible happens, even if it isn't
their fault, and wasn't anything that they could have changed or
avoided. So, when Abby told Luka most things (and he probably guessed
the rest), he felt guilty. Of course he had to be with his dad, but
it doens't change the fact that, during his absence, and, at least to
some extent, DUE to his absence, Abby had some awful stuff happen.
(Not to mention his ability to see, when he did arrive home, that
something was very wrong, or at least to guess what that 'something'
might be. And now, due to this bad stuff, he and Abby have to be apart
again. So yeah, "It's my fault," is a very normal, human reaction,
and a very normal, human way of expressing pain and grief. (And, just
for the record, he wasn't on his knees.)
I was also dreading Julia's "ER blessing ceremony" but that too
worked amazingly well. I think the fact that it was not only handled
seriously, but the characters/actors took it all seriously made it
work. (One confusion though. Wasn't Julia talking about things that
happened THIS year? So why were most of the 'patients who changed
you' memories from season 12? (Of course ... S13 had almost no
memorable stories.) And I could question whether Abby really WAS
'changed' in any way by (forget his name) her former prof with the
degenerative disease. But, those are small quibbles.
The patient storylines were pretty well handled, and both were new.
(Unless you count the 'kid was stable, then crashed in the ER' stuff,
but that's been done at least 1000 times since S1.) I found Sam's new
Supernurse persona a bit hard to swallow. What ARE they teaching her
in this 'transport' program? (And what is it? I missed the eppy
where she started it.)
And one other question. It seems that very often we've been told that
once a patient has been intubated, it requires quite a number of of
legal hoops to jump through before he can be extubated, even if he has
a clear DNR and/or family members want it done. So how were they able
to extubate our emphysema lady so immediately?
The 300 Patients concept was pretty well handled too. (Though, I
dunno, was it 300 pateints in the day, or in 12 hours? If the former,
it hardly seems excessive for a busy inner city ER.) Still my thought
at the final bit was "You're going to need those winnings, Morris,
when Frank has you arrested for assault and battery."
I was thinking the other day about Julia. Aside from being a poorly
drawn character, she's also not a very logical choice for chaplain in
this ER. Surely the patient base (given its location and status) is
going to lean heavily towards Catholics (Chicago is the largest
Catholic diocese in the country) and, among the African Americans,
fairly conservative main-stream protestants. (Baptist, AME, etc.)
These are not people who are likely to respond well to a chaplain like
this.
Sigh.... so it was actually a pretty good espisode. Still, with Luka
presumably now gone for good, I don't know if I'm going to bother
anymore. There is nothing else on the show that holds my interest
anymore.
Naomi

Mark Nobles

2007-12-07 23:49:24 UTC

Post by Sharon Too
This whole ceremony thing was waaaaaaaaaaaay over done. We litteraly laughed
out loud. I understand the meaning of it and it's a nice thought. But I kept
thinking about what if they had done this years ago? I can just see Mark,
Doug and Carol stroking out as they attempt to squash the hysterical
giggling; Carter, the med student, awkwardly tipping over the bowl of water;
and Benton walking in on it and, without stopping, turning around and
walking right back out.

There you've gone and written the best scene in years, and you had to
go and do it while the writers are on strike. But I guess you're not a
scab until you get paid for it. Best scene in years.

Change Mark, Doug and Carol to Pratt, Neela and Sam; Carter to Harold;
and Benton to Frank. It still works.

Dropping The Helicopter

2007-12-08 01:44:02 UTC

...? We may have to agree to disagree on this point, as I saw this as
one of the worst episodes in a while, made all the worse by the fact
that it was supposed to be a "very special" 300th episode.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
The opening scenes were not promising. The stuff with the camel was
definitely one of the top ten Stupidest ER 'Humor' moments ever
filmed. (And that scene also included the now required juvenile
sexual humor, with the intern gawking at Neela's butt, and (a few
minutes later) everyone getting the chance to gawk at Dubenko's.

Good, here we're back to 110% agreement.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
But, once we got past that part, it mostly worked.

..and right back to 0%. D'OH! ;-)

Post by n***@indiana.edu
The Luka/Abby
stuff, IMO was handled very well. I LOVED the scene in Neela's
apartment.

Yep, it was pretty good.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
And as for the feared "Luka begging forgiveness" ... it
wasn't actually that way at all. In fact, it made perfect sense from
every viewpoint.

Yeah, I couldn't help noticing that either. I though sure somebody had
told us that Luka was going to be "on his knees" "begging forgiveness".
I'm *sure* somebody said that, but I'll be darned if I can remember
who it was! Well, whoever it was, I have to believe that this was a
one-time occurrence, and that such fabrication of plot elements was in
no wise precipitated by a pathological loathing for an imaginary
television character, and will not ever happen again.

In completely unrelated news... anybody seen sharons(s) lately?

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Guilt is NOT a rational emotion. People often feel
a sense of guilt when something terrible happens, even if it isn't
their fault, and wasn't anything that they could have changed or
avoided. So, when Abby told Luka most things (and he probably guessed
the rest), he felt guilty. Of course he had to be with his dad, but
it doens't change the fact that, during his absence, and, at least to
some extent, DUE to his absence, Abby had some awful stuff happen.
(Not to mention his ability to see, when he did arrive home, that
something was very wrong, or at least to guess what that 'something'
might be. And now, due to this bad stuff, he and Abby have to be apart
again. So yeah, "It's my fault," is a very normal, human reaction,
and a very normal, human way of expressing pain and grief. (And, just
for the record, he wasn't on his knees.)

He *wasn't* on his knees, was he? I can't say why, but I was
particularly paying attention to Luka's knees, and at no time was he
down on them, so I can vouch for your observation. Why would we both
have been thinking the exact same thing, when said exact same thing
never happened? It's almost as if somebody had told us something about
Luka and his knees which turned out to be a total confabulation.

Spooky.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I was also dreading Julia's "ER blessing ceremony" but that too
worked amazingly well.

Oh nononono, no it didn't.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I think the fact that it was not only handled
seriously, but the characters/actors took it all seriously made it
work. (One confusion though. Wasn't Julia talking about things that
happened THIS year? So why were most of the 'patients who changed
you' memories from season 12? (Of course ... S13 had almost no
memorable stories.) And I could question whether Abby really WAS
'changed' in any way by (forget his name) her former prof with the
degenerative disease. But, those are small quibbles.

Hmm. It just did not work for me on any level. The "flashbacks" didn't
even rise to the level of being corny for me, they just seemed so
out-of-place cinematography-wise.

Hmmm, no comment.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I found Sam's new
Supernurse persona a bit hard to swallow. What ARE they teaching her
in this 'transport' program? (And what is it? I missed the eppy
where she started it.)

At this point in E.R.'s life, it's best to not ask such questions. The
answers are always tragically disappointing.

Ok, now you are putting us on naoms!

Post by n***@indiana.edu
(Though, I
dunno, was it 300 pateints in the day, or in 12 hours? If the former,
it hardly seems excessive for a busy inner city ER.) Still my thought
at the final bit was "You're going to need those winnings, Morris,
when Frank has you arrested for assault and battery."

Worst single event in E.R. history.

I doubt the altar boys would complain though. ;-)

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Sigh.... so it was actually a pretty good espisode.

No, I think maybe you're just starting to "settle". I guess I can't
blame you considering the absolute bottom-scrapings they've been feeding
us for years now.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Still, with Luka
presumably now gone for good, I don't know if I'm going to bother
anymore. There is nothing else on the show that holds my interest
anymore.

Well, there's always the Head Of The E.R. Of The Week.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
Naomi

sharon

2007-12-08 13:39:08 UTC

snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
apartment.

I loved that we got to see that Neela had no idea that Abby was an alcoholic
despite being her 'bestest fwend'. I also liked that it was written in such
a way that we saw how low Abby had sunk as she viciously attacked Neela to
avoid discussing her issues. What I didn't like is that Neela made no
effort to prevent Abby from getting in her car and driving off three sheets
to the wind. Friends don't let friends drive drunk. I also thought it was
very wrong of Neela not to tell Luka what happened when she saw him later.
Abby is her friend, this is not the time for keeping secrets; she, her child
and everyone else is at serious risk. This also makes at least 4 people
working at County who know Abby is seriously messed up (and Neela and Luka
know exactly what the problem is) who do not bother to try to make sure she
doesn't work on patients. And, in a couple eppies, when she's back from
rehab, Anspaugh and the other bosses fall all over themselves praising her
for getting help on her own rather than waiting to be caught, completely
ignoring the fact that she should've been caught and would've been, had
others done their job.

snipped, since I agree, Luka is the kind of guy who takes responsibility and
it was not out of character for him to feel guilty about Abby's drinking and
his lack of understanding of how serious her problem is. It was, however,
completely out of character for him to abandon his wife and child completely
for months on end and for him to expect Abby to pay the bills on a
resident's salary while he didn't work since they apparently had no savings
or credit cards and he didn't negotiate a severance package when he stopped
being chief. That was bad writing, with logic holes that a truck could drive
through.

(And, just

Post by n***@indiana.edu
for the record, he wasn't on his knees.)

Just for the record, that scene was extensively rewritten. I would hope GV
and MT had some input since both have real life experiences with troubled
marriages including people doing awful things while drunk. It was far, far
better than the original script. Here are some of the stage directions,
directly quoted:

'He moves to her, he gets down on the ground at her feet.'
followed by:

'And now he's holding on around her legs, head in her lap.'

Luka's next line has this direction 'face buried, in pain'. He says:

"I'm sorry, I'm so sorry."

The final stage directions are that 'they are both crying'. So, as
originally written, Luka was indeed down on the floor, head in her lap,
sobbing and apologizing. Anyone who wishes to see a copy of the original,
email me, and I'll be happy to offer proof.

I also noticed that Abby said she was sorry in the scene that aired, there
was no apology from her in the original script. Thank goodness someone
finally came to their senses. The original portion available didn't have
the part where we see that Luka is much more perceptive than Abby gives him
credit for and that he already realizes that the drinking isn't the whole
story. Of course, Abby didn't come clean about her cheating, but it doesn't
matter, he knows. The scene was far, far better after the rewrites. The
fact that GV sat next to her, wasn't even looking at her and was rather
impassive, made Luka look stronger and more like an equal to Abby than he
has in years. Maybe Daddy Kovac left him his balls in the will.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I was also dreading Julia's "ER blessing ceremony" but that too
worked amazingly well. I think the fact that it was not only handled
seriously, but the characters/actors took it all seriously made it
work. (One confusion though. Wasn't Julia talking about things that
happened THIS year? So why were most of the 'patients who changed
you' memories from season 12? (Of course ... S13 had almost no
memorable stories.) And I could question whether Abby really WAS
'changed' in any way by (forget his name) her former prof with the
degenerative disease. But, those are small quibbles.

Since Abby's former prof was never mentioned again, I presume she was not
changed one iota. It's not like she suddenly volunteered to help care for
him or that she stopped trying to force her will on patients and everyone
else around her. I thought the patient thing was OK, but wish we'd have
seen more from the early days as well as 'caregiver' shots of some of the
oldtimers. I suppose TPTB don't want to remind us of the days when this
show used to be good. I agree, the scenes with Julia, who I don't like,
were actually quite good and moving. Also very appropriate for a Christmas
eppy.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
The patient storylines were pretty well handled, and both were new.
(Unless you count the 'kid was stable, then crashed in the ER' stuff,
but that's been done at least 1000 times since S1.) I found Sam's new
Supernurse persona a bit hard to swallow. What ARE they teaching her
in this 'transport' program? (And what is it? I missed the eppy
where she started it.)

It really hasn't been clear what the 'transport' thing is about, but,
throughout the season, there has been an ongoing storyline with Sam wanting
to stretch and grow as a nurse, that she is somewhat restless within the
confines of ER nursing. I welcome a personal storyline that is about career
for her (or anyone else in the cast, for that matter). I'm tired of Abby's
homelife and Pratt's gay brother, give me hospital based stuff every time.
I think that this might be an exit arc for LC eventually. It seems like Sam
might be wanting to go back to school, I am hoping she does advanced
practice nursing since the show has already spent way more time on the
'nurse becomes a doctor' story and it is far less common.

A Christmas miracle? Part of the reason was she apparently had a DNR and
was also conscious and could confirm her wishes, I think.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
The 300 Patients concept was pretty well handled too. (Though, I
dunno, was it 300 pateints in the day, or in 12 hours? If the former,
it hardly seems excessive for a busy inner city ER.) Still my thought
at the final bit was "You're going to need those winnings, Morris,
when Frank has you arrested for assault and battery."

I hated that, it was not funny. Morris has made some real strides in
becoming a 3 dimensional character. Nobody would try to break someone's
hand to win a bet, not even him. And, it had to be '300 patients' because
it was the 300th eppy. And, yes, a big city ER with as many people on duty
as County, would see that many and more most days.

snip

Post by n***@indiana.edu
These are not people who are likely to respond well to a chaplain like
this.

Yep, the new agey, touchy feely stuff is not going to work in an inner city
hospital serving a poor populace who are too busy trying to survive to be
looking into alternative religions. Chicago is also a meat and potatoes
type of town, Julia seems to have the sort of nebulous faith more commonly
seen on the West Coast.

Happy Hannukah, Naomi!

Sharon

unknown

2007-12-08 15:34:25 UTC

Post by sharon
There is also the stupid notion that any County hospital anywhere would have
a 'Christmas pageant' and that it would include a living nativity. The ACLU
would be all over that in a heartbeat. The camel bite humor wasn't worth
the ridiculous setup.

Not to mention the health department and others would have a fit at a
live animal in the building. The only animal that would get in there
was a seeing eye dog and even then there would be protests.

The last time I was in a hospital they allowed no animals. When I was
in a rehab hospital they allowed you to bring pets in one day a week
but only as far as the front lobby.

One thing to keep in mind is the hospital has patients who have
allergies to animals and are also deathly afraid of them.

My mother in law was in a nursing home a few years back
and one of the patients used to have a relative bring in her
dog. There were elderly patients who were scared to death of
the dog.

Also would the camel's owner allow it to go into Chicago?
Between the ambulances, speeding cars, beeping horns,
and other city noises i'd have to think the camel
would be a basket case.

Post by sharon
Abby is her friend, this is not the time for keeping secrets; she, her child
and everyone else is at serious risk.

Every time Abby gets in the car I keep expecting the next scene to be
her in a crash where she killed a half dozen people.

Post by sharon
It really hasn't been clear what the 'transport' thing is about, but,
throughout the season, there has been an ongoing storyline with Sam wanting
to stretch and grow as a nurse, that she is somewhat restless within the
confines of ER nursing. I welcome a personal storyline that is about career
for her (or anyone else in the cast, for that matter). I'm tired of Abby's
homelife and Pratt's gay brother, give me hospital based stuff every time.
I think that this might be an exit arc for LC eventually. It seems like Sam
might be wanting to go back to school, I am hoping she does advanced
practice nursing since the show has already spent way more time on the
'nurse becomes a doctor' story and it is far less common.

Of course Sam could do something that has never beeen done on ER
before, be a nurse, then go back to med school and become a doctor.

n***@indiana.edu

2007-12-08 19:31:22 UTC

Post by sharon
snip

There is also the stupid notion that any County hospital anywhere would have
a 'Christmas pageant' and that it would include a living nativity. The ACLU
would be all over that in a heartbeat. The camel bite humor wasn't worth
the ridiculous setup.
snip
I LOVED the scene in Neela's> apartment.
I loved that we got to see that Neela had no idea that Abby was an alcoholic
despite being her 'bestest fwend'.

Neela DID know. It took her about three seconds to realize that "I'm
having a drink" was NOT an accurate assessment of what was going on
there. And to call Abby out on it and urge her to get help.

I also liked that it was written in such

Post by sharon
a way that we saw how low Abby had sunk as she viciously attacked Neela to
avoid discussing her issues. What I didn't like is that Neela made no
effort to prevent Abby from getting in her car and driving off three sheets
to the wind. Friends don't let friends drive drunk.

Abby took the el? Walked? We DID see, in the eppy where Abby went to
the airport, that she WAS rational enough to not try to drive while
under the influence.

I also thought it was

Post by sharon
very wrong of Neela not to tell Luka what happened when she saw him later.
Abby is her friend, this is not the time for keeping secrets; she, her child
and everyone else is at serious risk.

I think that kind of thing can be a tough call for a friend. Or maybe
she figured Luka already knew.

This also makes at least 4 people

Post by sharon
working at County who know Abby is seriously messed up (and Neela and Luka
know exactly what the problem is) who do not bother to try to make sure she
doesn't work on patients.

Abby wasn't at work. She went in to apply for time off, NOT to see
patients.

Post by sharon
snipped, since I agree, Luka is the kind of guy who takes responsibility and
it was not out of character for him to feel guilty about Abby's drinking and
his lack of understanding of how serious her problem is. It was, however,
completely out of character for him to abandon his wife and child completely
for months on end and for him to expect Abby to pay the bills on a
resident's salary while he didn't work since they apparently had no savings
or credit cards and he didn't negotiate a severance package when he stopped
being chief. That was bad writing, with logic holes that a truck could drive
through.

Yes, I agree that that was poorly handled. Sometime in the many phone
conversations they had over the months, the finances SHOULD have come
up, and Luka should have some savings under him. (They live a fairly
modest life for two doctors.)

Post by sharon
(And, just> for the record, he wasn't on his knees.)
Just for the record, that scene was extensively rewritten. I would hope GV
and MT had some input since both have real life experiences with troubled
marriages including people doing awful things while drunk.

I found myself wondering, as I watched, if GV had any difficulty doing
the scenes, given the mutlple parrallels with RL situtuations I'm sure
he'd rather put behind him.

Post by sharon
A Christmas miracle? Part of the reason was she apparently had a DNR and
was also conscious and could confirm her wishes, I think.

I hated that, it was not funny. Morris has made some real strides in
becoming a 3 dimensional character. Nobody would try to break someone's
hand to win a bet, not even him.

I KNEW he would hit the 300, but I was expecting him either fake
something, or maybe injure himself in the process of his celebration.
Which would have made a LOT more sense.

Post by sharon
Happy Hannukah, Naomi!

Thanks. TOday is also my kid's 16th birthday. The mind boggles.

Naomi

Post by sharon
Sharon

sharon

2007-12-09 01:22:00 UTC

Post by sharon
snip

Neela DID know. It took her about three seconds to realize that "I'm
having a drink" was NOT an accurate assessment of what was going on
there. And to call Abby out on it and urge her to get help.

Neela didn't seem to have known until that moment. They've supposedly been
close friends for years, even lived together, but Neela didn't know she was
an alcoholic? In real life, that is exactly the sort of info one would
share with close friends.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I also liked that it was written in such

Abby took the el? Walked? We DID see, in the eppy where Abby went to
the airport, that she WAS rational enough to not try to drive while
under the influence.

She was driving her car on the way to Neela's. Where did she leave it?
Wasn't she still expecting to go to Croatia that evening when she left? She
was planning to leave the car in the street for a week or two until she got
back? Abby went to Neela's with every intention of getting blotto and,
yet, she drove her car, she didn't take a cab, she didn't take the El. If
she wasn't rational enough to leave her car at home and take the El over
there to get drunk, why in heaven's name would anyone think she was rational
enough to do it afterwards? In the eppy where she went to the airport, we
saw Abby try to drive and be unable to control the vehicle before she got
the cab. She didn't seem to be as drunk in the apartment as she was the
night she bedded Moretti. Like most drunks, Abby thinks she is in better
shape to drive than she actually is.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
I also thought it was

I think that kind of thing can be a tough call for a friend. Or maybe
she figured Luka already knew.

Doesn't matter, Abby was dangerously out of control; Neela needed to do
whatever she had to do to make sure that her husband was aware. 'Figuring
he already knew' is plain dumb.

Post by n***@indiana.edu
This also makes at least 4 people

Post by sharon
working at County who know Abby is seriously messed up (and Neela and Luka
know exactly what the problem is) who do not bother to try to make sure she
doesn't work on patients.

Abby wasn't at work. She went in to apply for time off, NOT to see
patients.

But all of those involved knew that she was not coping well at work for
weeks prior and none of them had absolute confirmation that she had taken
the LOA. Also, presuming she had gone to Croatia and attended the funeral,
there was no reason for anyone to think she was going to be in any better
shape to work when she got back. I am not thinking of just that specific
morning's binge, but of the entire pattern of alcoholism. Neela didn't know
Abby was going to go to rehab, she still had an obligation to turn her in
before she returned from the funeral and back to work.