Discussion:
5/6/04 Episode Abby and Dr. Weaver?
(too old to reply)
DreamladyK
2004-05-07 02:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver was
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.

Keri
Confusingly Amusing
2004-05-07 03:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver was
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Same here, much thanks to whoever helps :)

-----------------------------
"It's been a long hard road
without you by my side
why weren'r you there all the
nights that we cried, you broke
my mothers heart, you broke
your children for life, it's not O.K.
but we're alright..."
Chris ®
2004-05-07 03:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Confusingly Amusing
Same here, much thanks to whoever
helps :)
I, too did a "say what?" when I first saw it, but was too afraid to ask
in here for fear that I might sound stupid. I'm glad others were equally
baffled.

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E-mail all suggestions to above address.
Sharon Three
2004-05-07 03:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver was
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
Weaver found out that Abby had not yet gotten her grades on her boards. She
had to pass in order to graduate, she needs that MD to start her residency.
Anywhoo, Weaver told Abby they'd ranked her highly, meaning that, if she had
ranked County high enough, she would be there. Weaver was afraid Abby
wouldn't pass the exam, which would leave County short a position. So
Weaver reminded Abby that a med student could decline their match if it was
done by a certain date. She suggested Abby might do that, even though she
wouldn't know if she'd passed by then, so that another grad could be given
Abby's place in the intern class. In real life, the match takes place
several months before graduation. If Abby declined to go through with her
match, BTW, she'd be left high and dry and scrambling for another job,
probably at a lesser program, not that Weaver cared.

Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
butt in, pronto.

Doc Sharon
Connemara
2004-05-07 03:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
butt in, pronto.
Doc Sharon
Really! I am not an Abby fan, but who was it that consoled Kerry when she
miscarried her baby? Who was it who sat with Kerry when Sandi died and the
family ignored her? If Kerry owes anyone a debt of gratitude -- not to
mention the extra nursing shifts she pulled to help out in the ER along with
her med school requirements (And, yes, she needed the money, but Kerry took
advantage of her need.) -- it is Abby!
Michelle
--
There are far too many people in the world....
And NOT enough HUMAN BEINGS!!
DawnK
2004-05-07 03:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
was
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
Weaver found out that Abby had not yet gotten her grades on her boards.
She
Post by Sharon Three
had to pass in order to graduate, she needs that MD to start her residency.
Anywhoo, Weaver told Abby they'd ranked her highly, meaning that, if she had
ranked County high enough, she would be there. Weaver was afraid Abby
wouldn't pass the exam, which would leave County short a position. So
Weaver reminded Abby that a med student could decline their match if it was
done by a certain date. She suggested Abby might do that, even though she
wouldn't know if she'd passed by then, so that another grad could be given
Abby's place in the intern class. In real life, the match takes place
several months before graduation. If Abby declined to go through with her
match, BTW, she'd be left high and dry and scrambling for another job,
probably at a lesser program, not that Weaver cared.
Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
butt in, pronto.
Doc Sharon
Yeah, Kerry totally had a condescending tone of voice for that whole
exchange. It just seemed so wrong.

Dawn
Sharon
2004-05-07 04:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by DawnK
Yeah, Kerry totally had a condescending tone of voice for that whole
exchange. It just seemed so wrong.
What a segue for Weaver, eh? Abby asks how things are going with little
Henry's court case and Weaver turns around and immediatiely gives her a
classic Three Stooges eye poke with nary a flinch.

Cold, cold heart.

-Sharon
Rap
2004-05-07 04:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon
Post by DawnK
Yeah, Kerry totally had a condescending tone of voice for that whole
exchange. It just seemed so wrong.
What a segue for Weaver, eh? Abby asks how things are going with little
Henry's court case and Weaver turns around and immediatiely gives her a
classic Three Stooges eye poke with nary a flinch.
Cold, cold heart.
-Sharon
ah... its all part of her charm :)
SassySaxonMD
2004-05-07 16:33:57 UTC
Permalink
John Wells wrote the episode. When he writes for Kerry, he doesnt add any depth
to her at all.

He must have totally forgot about the Kerry/Abby friendship that is bubbling
Chris ®
2004-05-07 03:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Amazing how Weacer can treat people so
badly when they've treated her so well.
She has an almost pathalogical selfishness. At least Romano was a jerk
to your face.

-------------------------------

Wanted: One .sig. Must be offensive to:

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- Yankee fans
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E-mail all suggestions to above address.
John Pruitt
2004-05-07 12:32:09 UTC
Permalink
I couldn't follow it either but I knew that Weaver was up to no good -
AGAIN. I had hoped that she was turning over a new leaf - but. In
retrospect - she might have been trying to help Abby. Anyway - good show
last night.

John
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
was
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
Weaver found out that Abby had not yet gotten her grades on her boards.
She
Post by Sharon Three
had to pass in order to graduate, she needs that MD to start her residency.
Anywhoo, Weaver told Abby they'd ranked her highly, meaning that, if she had
ranked County high enough, she would be there. Weaver was afraid Abby
wouldn't pass the exam, which would leave County short a position. So
Weaver reminded Abby that a med student could decline their match if it was
done by a certain date. She suggested Abby might do that, even though she
wouldn't know if she'd passed by then, so that another grad could be given
Abby's place in the intern class. In real life, the match takes place
several months before graduation. If Abby declined to go through with her
match, BTW, she'd be left high and dry and scrambling for another job,
probably at a lesser program, not that Weaver cared.
Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
butt in, pronto.
Doc Sharon
Hunter
2004-05-07 17:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
was
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
Weaver found out that Abby had not yet gotten her grades on her boards. She
had to pass in order to graduate, she needs that MD to start her residency.
Anywhoo, Weaver told Abby they'd ranked her highly, meaning that, if she had
ranked County high enough, she would be there. Weaver was afraid Abby
wouldn't pass the exam, which would leave County short a position. So
Weaver reminded Abby that a med student could decline their match if it was
done by a certain date. She suggested Abby might do that, even though she
wouldn't know if she'd passed by then, so that another grad could be given
Abby's place in the intern class. In real life, the match takes place
several months before graduation. If Abby declined to go through with her
match, BTW, she'd be left high and dry and scrambling for another job,
probably at a lesser program, not that Weaver cared.
Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
butt in, pronto.
Doc Sharon
----
Damn, and I just posted a response in another thread ("what happened
at the end?") saying that Abby was more or less ingrateful for the
favor I thought Weaver was extending towards her. Shows how totally
lost I was; I thought Weaver was showing some compassion.

OK then, Abby was not being thrown a possible life line by Kerry, but
an anchor. Kerry fooled me big time. To think she tried to screw Abby
after she literaly gave Kerry to cry on. Makes me loose a little
compassion for her getting her baby back.

Perhaps her being an arrogant ass is really her, like with Romano, and
not a facade as I thought.

----->Hunter
Rap
2004-05-07 17:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
was
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
Weaver found out that Abby had not yet gotten her grades on her boards.
She
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
had to pass in order to graduate, she needs that MD to start her residency.
Anywhoo, Weaver told Abby they'd ranked her highly, meaning that, if she had
ranked County high enough, she would be there. Weaver was afraid Abby
wouldn't pass the exam, which would leave County short a position. So
Weaver reminded Abby that a med student could decline their match if it was
done by a certain date. She suggested Abby might do that, even though she
wouldn't know if she'd passed by then, so that another grad could be given
Abby's place in the intern class. In real life, the match takes place
several months before graduation. If Abby declined to go through with her
match, BTW, she'd be left high and dry and scrambling for another job,
probably at a lesser program, not that Weaver cared.
Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
butt in, pronto.
Doc Sharon
----
Damn, and I just posted a response in another thread ("what happened
at the end?") saying that Abby was more or less ingrateful for the
favor I thought Weaver was extending towards her. Shows how totally
lost I was; I thought Weaver was showing some compassion.
OK then, Abby was not being thrown a possible life line by Kerry, but
an anchor. Kerry fooled me big time. To think she tried to screw Abby
after she literaly gave Kerry to cry on. Makes me loose a little
compassion for her getting her baby back.
Perhaps her being an arrogant ass is really her, like with Romano, and
not a facade as I thought.
Or it could be both. Now I'll admit to being a big Dr Weaver fan but even I
was inclined to see this as Kerry covering the hospital's ass more than
Kerry being nice... but your notion in the other thread raises the
possibility of both good and bad intent. Help Abby out cause she's flunked
her boards And cover the hospital's ass.

Mind you, I thought the whole subplot was clunky.
Hunter
2004-05-07 22:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr.
Weaver
was
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally
lost.
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
Post by DreamladyK
Thanks in advance.
Keri
Weaver found out that Abby had not yet gotten her grades on her boards.
She
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
had to pass in order to graduate, she needs that MD to start her
residency.
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
Anywhoo, Weaver told Abby they'd ranked her highly, meaning that, if she
had
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
ranked County high enough, she would be there. Weaver was afraid Abby
wouldn't pass the exam, which would leave County short a position. So
Weaver reminded Abby that a med student could decline their match if it
was
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
done by a certain date. She suggested Abby might do that, even though
she
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
wouldn't know if she'd passed by then, so that another grad could be
given
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
Abby's place in the intern class. In real life, the match takes place
several months before graduation. If Abby declined to go through with
her
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
match, BTW, she'd be left high and dry and scrambling for another job,
probably at a lesser program, not that Weaver cared.
Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer
can
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have
much
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her
cheating
Post by Hunter
Post by Sharon Three
butt in, pronto.
Doc Sharon
----
Damn, and I just posted a response in another thread ("what happened
at the end?") saying that Abby was more or less ingrateful for the
favor I thought Weaver was extending towards her. Shows how totally
lost I was; I thought Weaver was showing some compassion.
OK then, Abby was not being thrown a possible life line by Kerry, but
an anchor. Kerry fooled me big time. To think she tried to screw Abby
after she literaly gave Kerry to cry on. Makes me loose a little
compassion for her getting her baby back.
Perhaps her being an arrogant ass is really her, like with Romano, and
not a facade as I thought.
Or it could be both. Now I'll admit to being a big Dr Weaver fan but even I
was inclined to see this as Kerry covering the hospital's ass more than
Kerry being nice... but your notion in the other thread raises the
possibility of both good and bad intent. Help Abby out cause she's flunked
her boards And cover the hospital's ass.
Mind you, I thought the whole subplot was clunky.
----
I have to say I had a hard time following the conversation, so it
could had been enlightened self-interest on Kerry's part. I have to
see the scene again.
Oh btw, in my previous answer a did a typically bad job of proof
reading my post before I hit the "send" button. A line in it should
had read: "To think she tried to screw Abby aftert she literally gave
Kerry A SHOULDER TO cry on."

Gotta do a better job.

---->Hunter
Shawn H
2004-05-08 06:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Sharon Three <***@coxnospam.net> wrote:

: Abby was absolutely right to call Weaver on her underhandedness. It is
: indeed illegal for program directors to try to tamper with the match.
: County could even lose it's accreditation for it. Amazing how Weacer can
: treat people so badly when they've treated her so well. I don't have much
: love for Abby, but Weaver sure ought to.Abby should've turned her cheating
: butt in, pronto.

I thought at first Kerry was offering some sort of assistance or
assurance to Abby; I hated realizing that she was just practicing her
standard micro-maniacal version of bad management. How evil, and to the
one of the few people who cared enough to reach out to her about her son.

Shawn
T
2004-05-07 07:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver was
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
One slight addendum based on my fuzzy understanding of the implications:


If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.

If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.

If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".

It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"


That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.


TBerk
Mon Pjc
2004-05-07 08:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver was
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..

Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital staffing
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
Karen eichorst
2004-05-07 12:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
was
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..
Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital staffing
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
I used to really like Kerry but I don't like what the writers have done to
the character. I got the 'helpful' vibe at first but it certainly changed to
the 'trying to cover County's ass at any cost' vibe before she was done.
IOW, she didn't seem to me to be trying to help Abby - just to make it
_look_ like she was trying to help Abby.


Karen E.
Mon Pjc
2004-05-07 12:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
was
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
One slight addendum based on my fuzzy understanding of the
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..
Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital staffing
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
I used to really like Kerry but I don't like what the writers have done to
the character. I got the 'helpful' vibe at first but it certainly changed to
the 'trying to cover County's ass at any cost' vibe before she was done.
IOW, she didn't seem to me to be trying to help Abby - just to make it
_look_ like she was trying to help Abby.
Karen E.
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.

But it didn't make it right.
Karen eichorst
2004-05-07 12:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr.
Weaver
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
was
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally
lost.
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Thanks in advance.
Keri
One slight addendum based on my fuzzy understanding of the
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge
time,
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass
we
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we
could
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..
Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital
staffing
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
I used to really like Kerry but I don't like what the writers have done to
the character. I got the 'helpful' vibe at first but it certainly changed
to
Post by Karen eichorst
the 'trying to cover County's ass at any cost' vibe before she was done.
IOW, she didn't seem to me to be trying to help Abby - just to make it
_look_ like she was trying to help Abby.
Karen E.
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
Because she wasn't supposed to be talking about the issue with anyone. Based
on Weaver's reaction to Abby's...threat, it seems clear to me that Weaver
knew she shouldn't be raising the issue but did so anyway. Heck, it's not
like Weaver's ever been hosed for her actions in the past. Why should she
think it would be different this time?
Post by DreamladyK
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.
I don't think it was personal either. That's part of what made it odd.
Abby's really the one person Kerry's had any kind of connection with
recently and Kerry pulls this stunt?
Post by DreamladyK
But it didn't make it right.
That's for sure.


Karen E.
Joranger
2004-05-07 13:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mon Pjc
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.
But it didn't make it right.
County, and by extension, Kerry, palced Abby in their "top 20." Now Kerry
hears Abby might not pass the Board, and she basically tells Abby Abby can
withdraw her match request--putting Abby's future in check-- just so Kerry and
County aren't left short a resident. So Kerry was once again putting the
hospital before the people who work there. I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was just plain
nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.

jo
Caroline
2004-05-07 15:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joranger
Post by Mon Pjc
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.
But it didn't make it right.
County, and by extension, Kerry, palced Abby in their "top 20." Now Kerry
hears Abby might not pass the Board, and she basically tells Abby Abby can
withdraw her match request--putting Abby's future in check-- just
"just"?
Post by Joranger
so Kerry and
County aren't left short a resident. So Kerry was once again putting the
hospital before the people who work there.
A competent leader will at times put the company's needs ahead of its employees'
individual needs.
Post by Joranger
I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was just plain
nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.
Two facts that clash here for me:

1. Kerry was breaking the rules.

2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
provided to patients.

So I dunno. Kerry does not come off smelling like a rose here, but she certainly
had the best interests of the patients in mind. The latter is highly mitigating
IMO.
Amy Gray
2004-05-07 18:51:04 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 07 May 2004 15:33:52 GMT, "Caroline"
Post by Caroline
2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
provided to patients.
Now that this whole thing is as clear as mud I'm even more
confused now.

Wouldn't it make more sense to pick the personnel after
the results of the tests are in?

Is it just me or is Kerry putting the cart before the horse?
"They told me i could be on next season."
----------------------------Homer Simpson
----------------------------on Jay Leno
----------------------------referreing to Friends


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Caroline
2004-05-07 19:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Caroline
2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
provided to patients.
Now that this whole thing is as clear as mud I'm even more
confused now.
Wouldn't it make more sense to pick the personnel after
the results of the tests are in?
Perhaps the passing rate on the boards is so high that situations like that we
saw last night rarely occur?

Otherwise, I figure it's the wheels of bureaucracy at work here: Takes a certain
amount of time to process everyone's (students' and hospitals') requests (which
include not just hospital but specialty?)
Post by Amy Gray
Is it just me or is Kerry putting the cart before the horse?
You don't see that Kerry is constrained by the flaws in the system, and so is
trying to beat them?
Sharon Three
2004-05-07 23:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Gray
On Fri, 07 May 2004 15:33:52 GMT, "Caroline"
Post by Caroline
2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
provided to patients.
Now that this whole thing is as clear as mud I'm even more
confused now.
Wouldn't it make more sense to pick the personnel after
the results of the tests are in?
Is it just me or is Kerry putting the cart before the horse?
Well, most med students have passed the exam well before graduation, so it
isn't an issue. Flunking Boards is pretty rare for students at an
accredited US med school. However, it's not up to Kerry to decide when to
hire new interns, the vast majority use the National Residency Matching
Program which sets all the rules and deadlines. ER screwed with the
timeline to make it a cliffhanger, although it's hard to believe anyone
thinks she'll flunk 'em again.

In real life, fourth year students fill out an application for the match
early in the academic year, August or September. These are then sent to any
programs the student is interested in visiting and interviewing. This takes
place in the fall and early winter. By the end of December, it's done and
the student fills out a match list, ranking the programs visited according
to his/her preferences. This is submitted in January, as are the different
programs' lists of students they want in order. This is all fed in a
computer which does the match, giving weight to the student. The match is
announced in mid March. Every student has the day off from clinics and goes
to the med school where the envelopes are handed out en masse at noon. Then
it's off to the bar to party. Since most students do not match at their med
school's hospital or even in the same city, this gives a few months to find
a place to live, plan the move, for spouses to find jobs, etc.

Doc Sharon
Lori S.
2004-05-10 02:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Program which sets all the rules and deadlines. ER screwed with the
timeline to make it a cliffhanger, although it's hard to believe anyone
thinks she'll flunk 'em again.
Naw, not on the "Abby And The *Rest* Of The ER" show we've been getting this
year! Gotta tell ya tho, I was proud of her for standing up to Kerry.
That's easier said than done. I thought the whole conversation was
especially shitty of Kerry after Abby's recent kindness to her. Guess I
shouldn't have expected anything more, but it was kind of sad to think that
no matter what, her job comes before her friends. What does that say about
what kind of mother she would be? Hmm... who knows?
Shawn H
2004-05-08 06:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Amy Gray <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Wouldn't it make more sense to pick the personnel after
: the results of the tests are in?

It may be fairly unusual for someone who's a top pick with several
potential "matches" to also do so poorly on her written exams. Abby may
just test poorly in general, though I remember she was doing great the
first time she tried to be a doctor.

: Is it just me or is Kerry putting the cart before the horse?

Doesn't Kerry always? She panics at at the first
signs of worst-case-scenarios.

Shawn
Sharon Three
2004-05-07 23:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Mon Pjc
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.
But it didn't make it right.
County, and by extension, Kerry, palced Abby in their "top 20." Now Kerry
hears Abby might not pass the Board, and she basically tells Abby Abby can
withdraw her match request--putting Abby's future in check-- just
"just"?
Post by Joranger
so Kerry and
County aren't left short a resident. So Kerry was once again putting the
hospital before the people who work there.
A competent leader will at times put the company's needs ahead of its employees'
individual needs.
Post by Joranger
I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was just plain
nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.
1. Kerry was breaking the rules.
2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
provided to patients.
So I dunno. Kerry does not come off smelling like a rose here, but she certainly
had the best interests of the patients in mind. The latter is highly mitigating
IMO.
So, how did Kerry know that Abby's second choice hospital was not also
similarly shortstaffed? Or that their patients weren't going to be even
more deeply affected if they were short an intern? Kerry just didn't want
the hassle of finding someone to fill the slot or leaving it empty until
Abby could pass boards and join the interns. There's a reason why it's
illegal to tamper with the match. If Kerry is so concerned about patient
welfare, she wouldn't have jeopardized it by risking the match. If Abby
reports her, the resdidency could lose accreditation, meaning there would be
no ER residents at all or they might drop County from the match entirely
meaning they would have to scramble to find interns to fill slots in all
specialties.

Doc Sharon
Placebo
2004-05-08 18:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
If Abby
reports her, the resdidency could lose accreditation, meaning there would be
no ER residents at all or they might drop County from the match entirely
meaning they would have to scramble to find interns to fill slots in all
specialties.
Doc Sharon
What would she report? Kerry presented the scenario as a hypothetical, and
there were no witnesses. All there would be is an accusation. Kerry made
sure that she could lie her way out of the situation if it came down to it.
And it's unlikely that most people would believe that Kerry would have this
conversation with Abby since the potential for damage to her professional
career would be so high, not to mention the damage to the hospital.
In any event it's unlikely that they're going to have Abby actually failing
her boards, so the issue is moot, except to possibly set up some sort of
Abby/Kerry antagonism for next season.
Sharon Three
2004-05-08 19:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Placebo
Post by Sharon Three
If Abby
reports her, the resdidency could lose accreditation, meaning there
would
Post by Placebo
Post by Sharon Three
be
no ER residents at all or they might drop County from the match entirely
meaning they would have to scramble to find interns to fill slots in all
specialties.
Doc Sharon
What would she report? Kerry presented the scenario as a hypothetical, and
there were no witnesses. All there would be is an accusation. Kerry made
sure that she could lie her way out of the situation if it came down to it.
And it's unlikely that most people would believe that Kerry would have this
conversation with Abby since the potential for damage to her professional
career would be so high, not to mention the damage to the hospital.
In any event it's unlikely that they're going to have Abby actually failing
her boards, so the issue is moot, except to possibly set up some sort of
Abby/Kerry antagonism for next season.
If Abby reported the conversation and its context to the NMRP, they would
indeed investigate, and discover that Abby had not passed her boards yet,
that Weaver discovered this and then tried to get Abby to change her match
list to protect County. This is not a court of law, there are no criminal
charges. Why would Abby lie about it? How would she be helped by telling
the story? If she had changed her mind about listing County, she could
legally contact the NRMP and change it, she didn't need to lie to do it.
The only person who would have anything to gain was Weaver. Witnesses or
not, she would not be able to weasel her way out of it.

Doc Sharon
Lukafic
2004-05-09 10:51:26 UTC
Permalink
What would she[abby] report? Kerry presented the scenario as a hypothetical,
and
there were no witnesses. All there would be is an accusation. Kerry made
sure that she could lie her way out of the situation if it came down to it.
Except Kerry violated the match when she told Abby she had been placed in
County's top 20; the "hypothetical's" that came after just added to Kerry's
wrongdoing. It would be pretty easy to check Abby's actual ranking; if that
checked out (and why would Kerry have lied about it?), it would add credence to
the rest of Abby's report. Yes, Kerry was trying, in her own somewhat twisted
way, to "protect" her program, but subverting the process is not the way to do
it.

jo
on the go
Shawn H
2004-05-08 06:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

: A competent leader will at times put the company's needs ahead of its employees'
: individual needs.

In this case Abby's "need" wasn't something personal, but to be offered a
job where she would work FOR that company.

: 1. Kerry was breaking the rules.

: 2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
: that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
: think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
: provided to patients.

: So I dunno. Kerry does not come off smelling like a rose here, but she certainly
: had the best interests of the patients in mind. The latter is highly mitigating
: IMO.

That rule is in place for a reason, and for Kerry to overstep it is the
greater wrong.

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-08 15:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
: A competent leader will at times put the company's needs ahead of its employees'
: individual needs.
In this case Abby's "need" wasn't something personal, but to be offered a
job where she would work FOR that company.
How is this not personal?
Post by Shawn H
: 1. Kerry was breaking the rules.
: 2. Kerry was trying to ensure County was not short a resident. All evidence is
: that being short a resident is a very big deal to already overstrained County. I
: think it's perfectly fair to say Kerry was looking out for the health care
: provided to patients.
: So I dunno. Kerry does not come off smelling like a rose here, but she certainly
: had the best interests of the patients in mind. The latter is highly mitigating
: IMO.
That rule is in place for a reason, and for Kerry to overstep it is the
greater wrong.
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be short a
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be the welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
Joranger
2004-05-08 16:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be short a
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be the welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency program?
Yeah, that's really thinking about the patients. Kerry was trying to CYA
because she and the County match committee *possibly* made a mistake by ranking
Abby so highly. ("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)

jo
Caroline
2004-05-08 16:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be short a
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be the welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency program?
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down the ER
residency program. I'm not buying it.

If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing the
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the County
ER.

snip
Post by Joranger
("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)
That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
presented. On the contrary.
Rap
2004-05-08 16:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be short a
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be the welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency program?
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down the ER
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing the
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the County
ER.
In theory, County could, as punishment, not recieve any residents for the er
dept because kerry violated confidentiality. I must say, I would be
mightiliy pissed if my residency was dumped because of something I didn't
do.
Post by Caroline
snip
Post by Joranger
("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)
That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
presented. On the contrary.
Yeah but this is tv. There's no doubt in my mind that abby will pass her
boards and match at county in the er.
Caroline
2004-05-08 16:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be
short a
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be the welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency
program?
Post by Caroline
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down
the ER
Post by Caroline
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing
the
Post by Caroline
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the
County
Post by Caroline
ER.
In theory, County could, as punishment, not recieve any residents for the er
dept because kerry violated confidentiality.
Do you have something on which to base this? For example, a hospital that was
punished like this for a similar breach of the match program?

I mean, in theory, anything could happen.
Post by Sharon Three
I must say, I would be
mightiliy pissed if my residency was dumped because of something I didn't
do.
Post by Caroline
snip
Post by Joranger
("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)
That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
presented. On the contrary.
Yeah but this is tv. There's no doubt in my mind that abby will pass her
boards and match at county in the er.
Then this past week's script is mightily misleading.
Rap
2004-05-08 16:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be
short a
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be
the
Post by Caroline
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency
program?
Post by Caroline
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down
the ER
Post by Caroline
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing
the
Post by Caroline
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the
County
Post by Caroline
ER.
In theory, County could, as punishment, not recieve any residents for the er
dept because kerry violated confidentiality.
Do you have something on which to base this? For example, a hospital that was
punished like this for a similar breach of the match program?
I mean, in theory, anything could happen.
Personally I do not as I am not a medical professional. I imagine Doc Sharon
could probably scare up a few examples. I certainly have not seen anything
similar mentioned in the news.
Post by Caroline
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
snip
Post by Joranger
("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)
That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
presented. On the contrary.
Yeah but this is tv. There's no doubt in my mind that abby will pass her
boards and match at county in the er.
Then this past week's script is mightily misleading.
You just have to remember who has their contract up this season. For that
reason alone, I would be much more concerned about Weaver stealing the baby
and running for the hills.
Caroline
2004-05-08 16:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rap
Post by Caroline
Post by Rap
Yeah but this is tv. There's no doubt in my mind that abby will pass her
boards and match at county in the er.
Then this past week's script is mightily misleading.
You just have to remember who has their contract up this season. For that
reason alone, I would be much more concerned about Weaver stealing the baby
and running for the hills.
Oops. I misunderstood. You mean you think Abby's current board results will show
her passing.

Unless I missed something, I could also see her failing and staying on as a
nurse at County until she passes the thing (depending on the limitations on
re-taking the Boards).
Sharon Three
2004-05-08 19:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be
short a
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be
the
Post by Caroline
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency
program?
Post by Caroline
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down
the ER
Post by Caroline
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing
the
Post by Caroline
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the
County
Post by Caroline
ER.
In theory, County could, as punishment, not recieve any residents for the er
dept because kerry violated confidentiality.
Do you have something on which to base this? For example, a hospital that was
punished like this for a similar breach of the match program?
I mean, in theory, anything could happen.
Here is the page at NRMP's web site indicating penalties for institutions
violating the match. You can search a bit and discover that Kerry's actions
were indeed a clearcut violation of the match, not even borderline.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/policies/map_institution.html#comm_confidential


Doc Sharon
Sharon Three
2004-05-08 18:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be short a
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be the welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency program?
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down the ER
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing the
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the County
ER.
snip
Post by Joranger
("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)
That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
presented. On the contrary.
Hospitals are not awarded residency programs on the basis of need, but on
the basis of whether they can provide the proper education and training for
the residents. The National Residency Matching Program really doesn't give
a cr** whether County has enough watm bodies to see patients. If they
decline to include County in the match this year, then Kerry will have to
scramble to find interns who didn't go through the match (since applicants
who match are contractually required to accept their match), or County will
have to hire more attendings, PA's, etc. at much higher expense to fill the
void or they will be shorthanded all year.

From the NRMP web site, penalties for programs violating the match:

9.2.2 Programs

If the NRMP's investigation of an alleged violation by a program confirms
that a program has committed a material violation of this Agreement or the
Match Participation Agreement, the processing of the program's rank order
list may be interrupted. If the parties agree to cure the violation prior to
either the rank order list certification deadline or Match Day, the NRMP
will work with the parties to help them cure the violation. If the violation
is not cured in a timely manner, as determined by the NRMP, the NRMP at its
discretion may withdraw the program from the Matching Program.

The final NRMP report on the confirmed violation will be delivered to:

(1) the NRMP institutional official for transmittal to the institution's
graduate medical education committee

(2) the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education for
distribution to the respective Program's Residency Review Committee (RRC)
and the Institutional Review Committee

(3) the respective specialty program director association

(4) the party who originally reported the violation

(5) the NRMP Executive Committee

(6) any parties whom the NRMP has determined are relevant to its
investigation

In addition, the program may be identified as a match violator in the NRMP
Registration, Ranking, and Results System on the Match Site in subsequent
NRMP matches for up to three years, as determined by the NRMP.
To sum it up: if the violation is discovered, the penalty for not
correcting it is to drop County's ER residency from the match program for
that year, ie, no interns. In addition, the NRMP will advise every
applicant for up to 3 years that County violated its match in the ER
program. No med student in their right mind is going to apply to a
residency that has recently violated the rules. When I was matching, I
didn't know anyone who would even apply to, let alone, interview or list a
program with a history of match violations. There are too many options out
there to risk getting caught up in a scandal, which means County is no
longer competing for the top students but settling for the dregs. So if
Kerry is reported for violating the match and penalized, County's ER program
is in the crapper for up to 4 years. Residency programs have shut down over
less.

Doc Sharon

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/policies/map_institution.html#comm_confidential
Mon Pjc
2004-05-09 15:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be
short a
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be
the
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency
program?
Post by Caroline
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down
the ER
Post by Caroline
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing
the
Post by Caroline
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the
County
Post by Caroline
ER.
snip
Post by Joranger
("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
before the residency is due to start.)
That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
presented. On the contrary.
Hospitals are not awarded residency programs on the basis of need, but on
the basis of whether they can provide the proper education and training for
the residents. The National Residency Matching Program really doesn't give
a cr** whether County has enough watm bodies to see patients. If they
decline to include County in the match this year, then Kerry will have to
scramble to find interns who didn't go through the match (since applicants
who match are contractually required to accept their match), or County will
have to hire more attendings, PA's, etc. at much higher expense to fill the
void or they will be shorthanded all year.
9.2.2 Programs
If the NRMP's investigation of an alleged violation by a program confirms
that a program has committed a material violation of this Agreement or the
Match Participation Agreement, the processing of the program's rank order
list may be interrupted. If the parties agree to cure the violation prior to
either the rank order list certification deadline or Match Day, the NRMP
will work with the parties to help them cure the violation. If the violation
is not cured in a timely manner, as determined by the NRMP, the NRMP at its
discretion may withdraw the program from the Matching Program.
(1) the NRMP institutional official for transmittal to the institution's
graduate medical education committee
(2) the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education for
distribution to the respective Program's Residency Review Committee (RRC)
and the Institutional Review Committee
(3) the respective specialty program director association
(4) the party who originally reported the violation
(5) the NRMP Executive Committee
(6) any parties whom the NRMP has determined are relevant to its
investigation
In addition, the program may be identified as a match violator in the NRMP
Registration, Ranking, and Results System on the Match Site in subsequent
NRMP matches for up to three years, as determined by the NRMP.
To sum it up: if the violation is discovered, the penalty for not
correcting it is to drop County's ER residency from the match program for
that year, ie, no interns. In addition, the NRMP will advise every
applicant for up to 3 years that County violated its match in the ER
program. No med student in their right mind is going to apply to a
residency that has recently violated the rules. When I was matching, I
didn't know anyone who would even apply to, let alone, interview or list a
program with a history of match violations. There are too many options out
there to risk getting caught up in a scandal, which means County is no
longer competing for the top students but settling for the dregs. So if
Kerry is reported for violating the match and penalized, County's ER program
is in the crapper for up to 4 years. Residency programs have shut down over
less.
Doc Sharon
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/policies/map_institution.html#comm_confidential
Abby would never report Kerry anyway. For me, the 'Hypothetical'
conversation worked both ways - Kerrys comments and Abby's answer.
Caroline
2004-05-09 17:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be
short a
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be
the
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency
program?
Post by Caroline
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down
the ER
Post by Caroline
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing
the
Post by Caroline
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the
County
Post by Caroline
ER.
snip
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
Hospitals are not awarded residency programs on the basis of need, but on
the basis of whether they can provide the proper education and training
for
Post by Sharon Three
the residents. The National Residency Matching Program really doesn't
give
Post by Sharon Three
a cr** whether County has enough watm bodies to see patients.
You're mixing issues here. The NRMP does not certify whether programs provide
the "proper education and training" for residents. The Accreditation Council for
Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) does.

The only organization external to a hospital that can shut down the hospital's
"entire residency program" is the ACGME.
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
If they
decline to include County in the match this year, then Kerry will have to
scramble to find interns who didn't go through the match (since applicants
who match are contractually required to accept their match), or County
will
Post by Sharon Three
have to hire more attendings, PA's, etc. at much higher expense to fill
the
Post by Sharon Three
void or they will be shorthanded all year.
9.2.2 Programs
If the NRMP's investigation of an alleged violation by a program confirms
that a program has committed a material violation of this Agreement or the
Match Participation Agreement, the processing of the program's rank order
list may be interrupted. If the parties agree to cure the violation prior
to
Post by Sharon Three
either the rank order list certification deadline or Match Day, the NRMP
will work with the parties to help them cure the violation. If the
violation
Post by Sharon Three
is not cured in a timely manner, as determined by the NRMP, the NRMP at
its
Post by Sharon Three
discretion may withdraw the program from the Matching Program.
(1) the NRMP institutional official for transmittal to the institution's
graduate medical education committee
(2) the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education for
distribution to the respective Program's Residency Review Committee (RRC)
and the Institutional Review Committee
(3) the respective specialty program director association
(4) the party who originally reported the violation
(5) the NRMP Executive Committee
(6) any parties whom the NRMP has determined are relevant to its
investigation
In addition, the program may be identified as a match violator in the NRMP
Registration, Ranking, and Results System on the Match Site in subsequent
NRMP matches for up to three years, as determined by the NRMP.
To sum it up: if the violation is discovered, the penalty for not
correcting it is to drop County's ER residency from the match program for
that year, ie, no interns.
What you're missing, Sharon, is how easily Weaver's "violation" (if it were
determined to be one) is corrected.

(And yes, I absolutely do think the NRMP would see this as a violation and
would seek correction.)
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
In addition, the NRMP will advise every
applicant for up to 3 years that County violated its match in the ER
program. No med student in their right mind is going to apply to a
residency that has recently violated the rules.
I understand your argument that the NRMP, upon finding a violation, can make
filling the needs of a residency program difficult. But it's simply false that
this NRMP violation can shut down an "entire residency program," particularly if
the violation is corrected, which is easily done.

The only authorities that can shut down an entire residency program are either
the ACGME, or, perhaps for budgetary reasons, the hospital board of directors or
city overseers.
Sharon Three
2004-05-09 22:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
If Abby fails her boards, then some hospital somewhere is going to be
short a
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
resident. Kerry did wrong, but I still consider her interests to be
the
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Caroline
Post by Joranger
Post by Caroline
welfare
of the patients, and in this instance, that showed.
By trying to subvert the match and jeopardizing the entire residency
program?
Post by Caroline
I don't know who put out this notion that Kerry's action would shut down
the ER
Post by Caroline
residency program. I'm not buying it.
If found out, Kerry would be reprimanded in some way, but I'm not seeing
the
Post by Caroline
disciplinary action going furthe than this. Too much of a need for the
County
Post by Caroline
ER.
snip
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
Hospitals are not awarded residency programs on the basis of need, but on
the basis of whether they can provide the proper education and training
for
Post by Sharon Three
the residents. The National Residency Matching Program really doesn't
give
Post by Sharon Three
a cr** whether County has enough watm bodies to see patients.
You're mixing issues here. The NRMP does not certify whether programs provide
the "proper education and training" for residents. The Accreditation Council for
Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) does.
The only organization external to a hospital that can shut down the hospital's
"entire residency program" is the ACGME.
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
If they
decline to include County in the match this year, then Kerry will have to
scramble to find interns who didn't go through the match (since applicants
who match are contractually required to accept their match), or County
will
Post by Sharon Three
have to hire more attendings, PA's, etc. at much higher expense to fill
the
Post by Sharon Three
void or they will be shorthanded all year.
9.2.2 Programs
If the NRMP's investigation of an alleged violation by a program confirms
that a program has committed a material violation of this Agreement or the
Match Participation Agreement, the processing of the program's rank order
list may be interrupted. If the parties agree to cure the violation prior
to
Post by Sharon Three
either the rank order list certification deadline or Match Day, the NRMP
will work with the parties to help them cure the violation. If the
violation
Post by Sharon Three
is not cured in a timely manner, as determined by the NRMP, the NRMP at
its
Post by Sharon Three
discretion may withdraw the program from the Matching Program.
(1) the NRMP institutional official for transmittal to the institution's
graduate medical education committee
(2) the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education for
distribution to the respective Program's Residency Review Committee (RRC)
and the Institutional Review Committee
(3) the respective specialty program director association
(4) the party who originally reported the violation
(5) the NRMP Executive Committee
(6) any parties whom the NRMP has determined are relevant to its
investigation
In addition, the program may be identified as a match violator in the NRMP
Registration, Ranking, and Results System on the Match Site in subsequent
NRMP matches for up to three years, as determined by the NRMP.
To sum it up: if the violation is discovered, the penalty for not
correcting it is to drop County's ER residency from the match program for
that year, ie, no interns.
What you're missing, Sharon, is how easily Weaver's "violation" (if it were
determined to be one) is corrected.
(And yes, I absolutely do think the NRMP would see this as a violation and
would seek correction.)
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Sharon Three
In addition, the NRMP will advise every
applicant for up to 3 years that County violated its match in the ER
program. No med student in their right mind is going to apply to a
residency that has recently violated the rules.
I understand your argument that the NRMP, upon finding a violation, can make
filling the needs of a residency program difficult. But it's simply false that
this NRMP violation can shut down an "entire residency program," particularly if
the violation is corrected, which is easily done.
The only authorities that can shut down an entire residency program are either
the ACGME, or, perhaps for budgetary reasons, the hospital board of directors or
city overseers.
While it can be easily corrected, and, I agree, mealy mouthed Kerry would be
quick to tuck her tail between her legs and do so, I was simply pointing out
what COULD happen. Your assertion that Kerry could only be reprimanded was
not correct.

Of course the NRMP cannot shut down a program, but a program that suddenly
lacks quality because decent students won't select it in the match is going
to come under close scrutiny from the ACGME. In addition, a program whose
own director is responsible for the violation is going to have inspectors
reviewing it with a fine tooth comb. In the worst cases, this sort of
violation can lead to a program's collapse, especially since these
violations do not tend to occur in a vacuum and other improprieties may well
be uncovered. Kerry did a stupid, stupid thing.

Doc Sharon
Shawn H
2004-05-09 21:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

:> ("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
:> before the residency is due to start.)

: That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
: presented. On the contrary.

Of course it's a possibility. Many people take major qualifying tests
more than once. She has so many evident skills, it does seem likely that
with practive she will improve.

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-09 22:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
:> ("possibly" because Abby could very well pass her boards
:> before the residency is due to start.)
: That this last is a possibility is not at all clear from what has been
: presented. On the contrary.
Of course it's a possibility. Many people take major qualifying tests
more than once. She has so many evident skills, it does seem likely that
with practive she will improve.
I meant *the script* for this episode seemed to indicate that there was no
possibility of Abby taking the boards yet another time before her residency was
supposed to begin.

Professional tests of this magnitude generally aren't given every week, ya know.
If you think this is otherwise for MD boards, do post a citation.

Otherwise, Kerry's actions don't make much sense.

I agree Abby can and may very well take the Boards again.
JC KW fan
2004-05-09 22:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
I agree Abby can and may very well take the Boards again.
Abby did re-take her boards. She took them again at the end of 10.20. This past
episode was 10.21. She had not receivedf the results of her test. it does rtake
some time for her find out her score. I believe she will pass. I think she did
not pass the first time was because she did not have time to study. Between
being a nurse and med student, she did not have enough time to prepare the
first time. I think Abby is better at the actual treating of patients and Neela
is better at the books.

Brenda

Brenda
A place for Carter/abby fans to hang out at.
1100 plus members
Coffeeandpie: http://www.coffeeandpie.com/board/
Shawn H
2004-05-10 15:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

:> Of course it's a possibility. Many people take major qualifying tests
:> more than once. She has so many evident skills, it does seem likely that
:> with practive she will improve.

: I meant *the script* for this episode seemed to indicate that there was no
: possibility of Abby taking the boards yet another time before her residency was
: supposed to begin.

She already took them again. We just don't know the score.

: Professional tests of this magnitude generally aren't given every week, ya know.
: If you think this is otherwise for MD boards, do post a citation.

Wouldn't even know what sites to look at. Just a quotidian viewer here, not
a medical professional like so many of you.

: Otherwise, Kerry's actions don't make much sense.

Yes. That's the point. Her actions were uncalled for, especially as they
alienated one of her few allies.

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-10 15:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
:> Of course it's a possibility. Many people take major qualifying tests
:> more than once. She has so many evident skills, it does seem likely that
:> with practive she will improve.
: I meant *the script* for this episode seemed to indicate that there was no
: possibility of Abby taking the boards yet another time before her residency was
: supposed to begin.
She already took them again. We just don't know the score.
Yup. And if she fails, Rap and I have at least discussed here the possibility
that she will eventually pass.
Post by Shawn H
: Professional tests of this magnitude generally aren't given every week, ya know.
: If you think this is otherwise for MD boards, do post a citation.
Wouldn't even know what sites to look at. Just a quotidian viewer here, not
a medical professional like so many of you.
Not I. I just read a lot.
Post by Shawn H
: Otherwise, Kerry's actions don't make much sense.
Yes. That's the point.
They only make no sense if Abby can take the boards again before her residency
is supposed to start.
Post by Shawn H
Her actions were uncalled for, especially as they
alienated one of her few allies.
I agree she alienated Abby in this instance. I disagree that Kerry did not have
at least one very good reason for doing so.
Shawn H
2004-05-09 21:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote
:> Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
:>
:> : A competent leader will at times put the company's needs ahead of its
: employees'
:> : individual needs.
:>
:> In this case Abby's "need" wasn't something personal, but to be offered a
:> job where she would work FOR that company.

: How is this not personal?

A personal need might be for time off, or a flexible schedule, or an
illness or family issue. "Needing" to be hired is pretty universal.

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-09 22:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
:>
:> : A competent leader will at times put the company's needs ahead of its
: employees'
:> : individual needs.
:>
:> In this case Abby's "need" wasn't something personal, but to be offered a
:> job where she would work FOR that company.
: How is this not personal?
A personal need might be for time off, or a flexible schedule, or an
illness or family issue. "Needing" to be hired is pretty universal.
We're not on the same page, but I'm not sure it's worth parsing further.

All I'm saying is that Kerry's actions in this instance were an attempt to
directly affect Abby's needs.
Shawn H
2004-05-10 15:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

:> A personal need might be for time off, or a flexible schedule, or an
:> illness or family issue. "Needing" to be hired is pretty universal.

: We're not on the same page, but I'm not sure it's worth parsing further.

: All I'm saying is that Kerry's actions in this instance were an attempt to
: directly affect Abby's needs.

Doesn't that make it even worse than if her actions were solely to avoid a
potential hassle for the hospital? Using her insider knowledge of Abby's
situation AGAINST Abby?

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-10 15:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
:> A personal need might be for time off, or a flexible schedule, or an
:> illness or family issue. "Needing" to be hired is pretty universal.
: We're not on the same page, but I'm not sure it's worth parsing further.
: All I'm saying is that Kerry's actions in this instance were an attempt to
: directly affect Abby's needs.
Doesn't that make it even worse than if her actions were solely to avoid a
potential hassle for the hospital? Using her insider knowledge of Abby's
situation AGAINST Abby?
I'm curious about your "moral calculus" here. Serious query in this vein: If
dropping the bomb on Hiroshima cost around 300,000 lives altogether, but saved a
million more, was it wrong to drop the bomb?

My sense is you'd say the bomb should not have been dropped, even if there were
a net gain of saving 700,000 lives. Yes?

All I'm saying is the answer in this Kerry Weaver situation isn't clear cut. At
least not to me.
Shawn H
2004-05-10 18:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote

:> Doesn't that make it even worse than if her actions were solely to avoid a
:> potential hassle for the hospital? Using her insider knowledge of Abby's
:> situation AGAINST Abby?

: I'm curious about your "moral calculus" here. Serious query in this vein: If
: dropping the bomb on Hiroshima cost around 300,000 lives altogether, but saved a
: million more, was it wrong to drop the bomb?

: My sense is you'd say the bomb should not have been dropped, even if there were
: a net gain of saving 700,000 lives. Yes?

Serious or not, it's a grossly inflated example to compare to Kerry's moral
dilemma and loyalty at that point. No way I'm going to seriously entertain
the question. Tone it down about thirty powers.

: All I'm saying is the answer in this Kerry Weaver situation isn't clear cut. At
: least not to me.

I'm all about bending the rules, but personal loyalty usually trumps
inter-office politics and betrayals -- in fact, usually fuels them. Rather
than practicising the (to me) more exceptional or at least expected
nepotism, Kerry was saying "you're useless to us" despite how very useful
Abby had been and so recently.

Shawn
Mon Pjc
2004-05-10 18:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
:> Doesn't that make it even worse than if her actions were solely to avoid a
:> potential hassle for the hospital? Using her insider knowledge of Abby's
:> situation AGAINST Abby?
: I'm curious about your "moral calculus" here. Serious query in this vein: If
: dropping the bomb on Hiroshima cost around 300,000 lives altogether, but saved a
: million more, was it wrong to drop the bomb?
: My sense is you'd say the bomb should not have been dropped, even if there were
: a net gain of saving 700,000 lives. Yes?
Serious or not, it's a grossly inflated example to compare to Kerry's moral
dilemma and loyalty at that point. No way I'm going to seriously entertain
the question. Tone it down about thirty powers.
: All I'm saying is the answer in this Kerry Weaver situation isn't clear cut. At
: least not to me.
I'm all about bending the rules, but personal loyalty usually trumps
inter-office politics and betrayals -- in fact, usually fuels them. Rather
than practicising the (to me) more exceptional or at least expected
nepotism, Kerry was saying "you're useless to us" despite how very useful
Abby had been and so recently.
Shawn
Can I ask if you're a Kerry fan or not?

just a question....to see where you're coming from...
Mon Pjc
2004-05-10 18:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caroline
Post by Shawn H
:> A personal need might be for time off, or a flexible schedule, or an
:> illness or family issue. "Needing" to be hired is pretty universal.
: We're not on the same page, but I'm not sure it's worth parsing further.
: All I'm saying is that Kerry's actions in this instance were an attempt to
: directly affect Abby's needs.
Doesn't that make it even worse than if her actions were solely to avoid a
potential hassle for the hospital? Using her insider knowledge of Abby's
situation AGAINST Abby?
I'm curious about your "moral calculus" here. Serious query in this vein: If
dropping the bomb on Hiroshima cost around 300,000 lives altogether, but saved a
million more, was it wrong to drop the bomb?
My sense is you'd say the bomb should not have been dropped, even if there were
a net gain of saving 700,000 lives. Yes?
All I'm saying is the answer in this Kerry Weaver situation isn't clear cut. At
least not to me.
Good point! I would like to see another scene with Kerry and Abby (after
she's got the results) to maybe explain why Kerry brought it up in the first
place.

I don't think it has harmed their relationship - if they had one! which I
think they did - and maybe we'll see more in the Finale and early next
season
Mon Pjc
2004-05-07 22:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joranger
Post by Mon Pjc
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.
But it didn't make it right.
County, and by extension, Kerry, palced Abby in their "top 20." Now Kerry
hears Abby might not pass the Board, and she basically tells Abby Abby can
withdraw her match request--putting Abby's future in check-- just so Kerry and
County aren't left short a resident.
Yep? what's so wrong with that? (leaving out illegal comments please!)
Post by Joranger
So Kerry was once again putting the
hospital before the people who work there.
Putting the patients first so they wouldn't be understaffed I was thinking.
I saw nothing to suggest Kerry was being overly bitchy towards Abby - in
fact, compared to previous occasions, Kerry was quite nice!
Post by Joranger
I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was just plain
nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.
I didn't get the feeling Kerry was bullying her, or being nasty.

Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her - hypothetically.
Simple as that. Kerry didn't exactly look her usual comfortable 'bitchy'
self when saying it to Abby either.
I was uncomfortable with the scene as I didn't know why the hell it was put
there! I saw no point to it, unless to make Kerry the bad guy once again.
Guess we all see things different ways!

Bygones!
Post by Joranger
jo
Joranger
2004-05-07 22:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joranger
Abby can
Post by Joranger
withdraw her match request--putting Abby's future in check-- just so Kerry
and
Post by Joranger
County aren't left short a resident.
Yep? what's so wrong with that? (leaving out illegal comments please!)
Because it is illegal? Or at least totally against the rules of the match
system?
Post by Joranger
Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her - hypothetically.
Simple as that.
The big difference: Kerry's "hypothetical" suggestions could get her, and
County General's program in huge trouble--so much trouble that they could lose
*all* their residents. I understand Kerry being concerned about staffing, but
she went about this totally wrong.

Jo
Kelley30
2004-05-08 03:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joranger
Post by Joranger
Abby can
Post by Joranger
withdraw her match request--putting Abby's future in check-- just so Kerry
and
Post by Joranger
Post by Joranger
County aren't left short a resident.
Yep? what's so wrong with that? (leaving out illegal comments please!)
Because it is illegal? Or at least totally against the rules of the match
system?
Exactly...but Weaver's problem is she thinks she is above the
rules...she has always thought that...
Post by Joranger
Post by Joranger
Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her - hypothetically.
Simple as that.
The big difference: Kerry's "hypothetical" suggestions could get her, and
County General's program in huge trouble--so much trouble that they could lose
*all* their residents. I understand Kerry being concerned about staffing, but
she went about this totally wrong.
Not to mention that one would think that she would have some feeling
for Abby, a woman who has shown her compassion. I mean Abby was the
person who gave her comfort was the miscarriage, with Sandy, with
Henry...but no Weaver has no heart. I'm hoping that Weaver's attorney
requests that Abby testify for Weaver and Abby says no. You (the
general you) has to be one cold hearted bitch to do that to a person
who has been that kind to you.

Kelley
Daisy
2004-05-08 00:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by Joranger
lots of stuff respectfully deleted<<<<
I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was
just
plain
Post by Joranger
nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.
I didn't get the feeling Kerry was bullying her, or being nasty.
Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her -
hypothetically. Simple as that. Kerry didn't exactly look her usual
comfortable 'bitchy' self when saying it to Abby either.
I was uncomfortable with the scene as I didn't know why the hell it
was put there! I saw no point to it, unless to make Kerry the bad guy
once again. Guess we all see things different ways!
The only reason the I can see for including it is to show continuity
(imagine that!!!) with Abby's comments last week about finishing something.
As usual, Kerry was used as a tool to provide a backdrop for other
characters. I long ago concluded that character analysis of Kerry is
pointless because she is treated as nothing more than a character in an
anthology series...the name and the position are the same but anything else
is up to the writer of the particular episode and what s/he needs to
further the development of other characters.

John Wells writes the big Carter episodes and based on those episodes and
his comments to the press he is only interested in Carter and the glory
years. The Corday bits in this episode were just as pointless since it
looked to be included so that John Wells could provide a backstep to the
Greene years.


Daisy (the other one, NOT the spoiler one)
Post by Mon Pjc
Bygones!
Post by Joranger
jo
Ellen K Hursh
2004-05-08 03:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daisy
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by Joranger
lots of stuff respectfully deleted<<<<
I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was
just plain nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.
I didn't get the feeling Kerry was bullying her, or being nasty.
Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her -
hypothetically. Simple as that. Kerry didn't exactly look her usual
comfortable 'bitchy' self when saying it to Abby either.
Dunno. Her tone kinda reminded *me* of the scene in "Leave it to
Weaver"... you know, the one where she was setting up to kick Carter out
of her basement apartment. (A bit similar, IIRC, to Bill "Office Space"
Lumbergh's set-up for "asking" employees to come in on the weekend to
work. "Yyyyyeah. If you could come in on Saturday, that would be great.
Ahh, I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to come in on Sunday,
too...") Or not.
Post by Daisy
Post by Mon Pjc
I was uncomfortable with the scene as I didn't know why the hell it was
put there! I saw no point to it, unless to make Kerry the bad guy once
again. Guess we all see things different ways!
The only reason the I can see for including it is to show continuity
(imagine that!!!) with Abby's comments last week about finishing something.
Yeah, I was thinking about that... can you imagine how the Abby of S7
would have reacted to that? You know... the Abby who reacted to
being kicked out of med school for non-payment of tuition by going and
screaming at Richard a lot, throwing around his golf clubs, threatening to
call a lawyer... and then never following up on it. I believe that this
Abby would, if necessary, follow up on... whatever it was that she said.
cein
2004-05-09 16:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daisy
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by Joranger
lots of stuff respectfully deleted<<<<
I was feeling sympathy towards
Kerry the last few weeks, but this blew it out of the water; it was
just
plain
Post by Joranger
nasty, and I'm glad Abby didn't let Kerry bully her.
I didn't get the feeling Kerry was bullying her, or being nasty.
Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her -
hypothetically. Simple as that. Kerry didn't exactly look her usual
comfortable 'bitchy' self when saying it to Abby either.
I was uncomfortable with the scene as I didn't know why the hell it
was put there! I saw no point to it, unless to make Kerry the bad guy
once again. Guess we all see things different ways!
The only reason the I can see for including it is to show continuity
(imagine that!!!) with Abby's comments last week about finishing something.
As usual, Kerry was used as a tool to provide a backdrop for other
characters. I long ago concluded that character analysis of Kerry is
pointless because she is treated as nothing more than a character in an
anthology series...the name and the position are the same but anything else
is up to the writer of the particular episode and what s/he needs to
further the development of other characters.
Hmm, that's a thought.
Based on previous events, old Abby would have hung her head and allowed
herself to be dumped out of the matching program without lifting a finger to
help herself - well okay, she might have gone and broken Kerry's golf clubs,
but then she'd have taken it on the chin and gone back to nursing while
telling everybody that nursing really was what she had her heart set on
doing.
Whereas new Abby is a fighter, who'll stick up for herself and won't let
anybody stop her from achieving her lifelong ambition of being a doctor.

ceindreadh
Shawn H
2004-05-08 06:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Mon Pjc <***@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

: Putting the patients first so they wouldn't be understaffed I was thinking.
: I saw nothing to suggest Kerry was being overly bitchy towards Abby - in
: fact, compared to previous occasions, Kerry was quite nice!

It's not very nice to say "I've just learned we might be expecting too
much of you, so would you mind not showing up after all?" especially to
someone who has befriended you.

Kerry was using their cordiality to manipulate Abby, who rightly called
her on it.

Shawn

: Kerry made hypothetical comments and Abby answered her - hypothetically.
: Simple as that. Kerry didn't exactly look her usual comfortable 'bitchy'
: self when saying it to Abby either.

I always thought Kerry looked highly UNcomfortable when she's being
overtly bitchy. It's the iron hand in the velvet glove you have to worry
about. And Abby looked quite mad by the end of the conversation.

: I was uncomfortable with the scene as I didn't know why the hell it was put
: there! I saw no point to it, unless to make Kerry the bad guy once again.
: Guess we all see things different ways!

It was put there to put Abby's future further in doubt before the
cliffhanger finale.

Shawn
Placebo
2004-05-08 18:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
t's not very nice to say "I've just learned we might be expecting too
much of you, so would you mind not showing up after all?" especially to
someone who has befriended you.
Kerry was using their cordiality to manipulate Abby, who rightly called
her on it.
I agree.I was glad when Abby threw her scenario right back in her
face.Kerry's entire play was completely inappropriate. It was good to see
someone play some hardball with Kerry for a change.
Mon Pjc
2004-05-09 15:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Placebo
Post by Shawn H
t's not very nice to say "I've just learned we might be expecting too
much of you, so would you mind not showing up after all?" especially to
someone who has befriended you.
Kerry was using their cordiality to manipulate Abby, who rightly called
her on it.
I agree.I was glad when Abby threw her scenario right back in her
face.Kerry's entire play was completely inappropriate. It was good to see
someone play some hardball with Kerry for a change.
I always got the impression that Kerry respected that about Abby. Abby has
always told Kerry what she thought - even back to when she started in the ER
as the med student in S.6
Sharon Three
2004-05-07 13:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr.
Weaver
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
was
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally
lost.
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Thanks in advance.
Keri
One slight addendum based on my fuzzy understanding of the
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge
time,
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass
we
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we
could
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..
Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital
staffing
Post by Karen eichorst
Post by Mon Pjc
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
I used to really like Kerry but I don't like what the writers have done to
the character. I got the 'helpful' vibe at first but it certainly
changed
Post by DreamladyK
to
Post by Karen eichorst
the 'trying to cover County's ass at any cost' vibe before she was done.
IOW, she didn't seem to me to be trying to help Abby - just to make it
_look_ like she was trying to help Abby.
Karen E.
I'm not saying what she said/did was right.
Why shouldn't she cover County's ass? She's CofS and right now work is all
she's got - again.
I didn't get the impression she was saying Abby woulnd't pass, but she was
covering for the chance she wasn't. It wasn't personal.
But it didn't make it right.
Because, when County's ER residency got accredited, they signed a pledge
promising to follow the rules of the match, one of which is that no one may
privately approach a candidate to try to influence him or her in making out
their match list. Kerry jeopardized the entire residency by apporaching
Abby, if Abby reports that she was attempting to tamper with the match, the
program could be shut down.

Doc Sharon
Shawn H
2004-05-08 06:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Karen eichorst <***@kcnet.com> wrote:

: I used to really like Kerry but I don't like what the writers have done to
: the character. I got the 'helpful' vibe at first but it certainly changed to
: the 'trying to cover County's ass at any cost' vibe before she was done.
: IOW, she didn't seem to me to be trying to help Abby - just to make it
: _look_ like she was trying to help Abby.

Kerry has always seen herself as a master of doublespeak, but she's too
unsubtle to pull it off usually. Jeanie could see right through her
games, too.

Interesting how her worse moves are saved for those right under her or
trying to improve their own status.

Shawn
Sharon Three
2004-05-07 13:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr.
Weaver
Post by Mon Pjc
was
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..
Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital staffing
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
There is no way that she was helping Abby at all. If Abby withdrew entirely
from the match and then passed her boards, she'd be scrambling looking for a
job at the last minute. If Abby's first choice was County for residency and
she removed it from the list, she might have gotten her second choice, but
maybe not. She might not even have matched at all anywhere. Pure selfish
interest on Kerry's part and Abby saw right through it.

Doc Sharon
Mon Pjc
2004-05-07 16:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by DreamladyK
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr.
Weaver
Post by Mon Pjc
was
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally
lost.
Post by Mon Pjc
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Thanks in advance.
Keri
One slight addendum based on my fuzzy understanding of the
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
Another excuse for people to dislike Kerry..
Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital
staffing
Post by Mon Pjc
situation) but just putting the words out wrong...
There is no way that she was helping Abby at all. If Abby withdrew entirely
from the match and then passed her boards, she'd be scrambling looking for a
job at the last minute. If Abby's first choice was County for residency and
she removed it from the list, she might have gotten her second choice, but
maybe not. She might not even have matched at all anywhere. Pure selfish
interest on Kerry's part and Abby saw right through it.
Doc Sharon
Well, we all differ with our opinions, I respect yours but I don't agree.
bygones.
Al Wesolowsky
2004-05-07 13:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Mon Pjc <***@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

:"T" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
:news:30Hmc.61894$***@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
:> DreamladyK wrote:
:>
:>>Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver
Deletia....
:> If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
:> because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
:> love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
:> "you have the inside track".
:>
:> It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
:> get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
:> dodge a bullet?"

:Personally I thought she was trying to help Abby (and the hospital staffing
:situation) but just putting the words out wrong...

That was my understanding also, but I was confused by the exchange. It
was not until Abs threatened Weaver with exposure that I realized that
Weaver was, it would seem, not trying to help her younger colleague but
was trying damage control with the match issue.

At least, I *think* that's what happened. Doc Sharon's post explained
matters to make it clear why Abs threatened to make a complaint, but
until the end of the scene I thought that Weaver was trying, in a
hamfisted way, to ensure that Abs ended up at County, match or no match.
--
Al B. Wesolowsky o Unlike J. W. Hardin, my foolish moves
***@bu.edu o have been many.
Boston University o ---Michael Murphey
Sharon Three
2004-05-07 13:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by T
Post by DreamladyK
Hello!
Can someone explain to me what the exchange between Abby and Dr. Weaver was
about concerning hospital matching. My husband and I got totally lost.
Thanks in advance.
Keri
If Abbey had picked out both Hospital 1 and Hospital 2 as preferences
and passed her boards she had a good chance of getting her 1st choice.
If Abbey didn't pass, Hospital 1 had a chance to pass her by without
clogging up a headcount, if they acted by a certain date. This leaves
Hospital 2 'stuck' with Abbey as a hand-me-down.
If Abbey chose County to be Hospital 1, this would be a great thing
because at 1st Weaver was hinting she was in the top twenty "and we'd
love to have you" so to speak. Sounded like wink/wink, nudge/nudge time,
"you have the inside track".
It later turned into "If you pick County as Hospital 2 and don't pass we
get stuck with you", "Wouldn't you choose County as #1 and then we could
dodge a bullet?"
That's what the confusing hints seemed to to be to me.
TBerk
The match favors the student, not the hospital. The student makes a list in
order of preference and goes to the highest ranking hospital on her list
that listed her high enough. Yeah, Kerry was suggesting to Abby that she
either withdraw entirely from the match or that she at least remove County
from her list so that there would be no danger that County would have an
empty slot to fill. This told Abby that County had listed her high enough
that she would match there if it was her first choice. And, of course,
Kerry couldn't conceive of the notion that Abby wouldn't have listed it
first. Telling an applicant where they ranked on your list violates the
rules of the match as does suggesting to a candidate that they revise their
match list to help out your program. Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.

Doc Sharon
Hedlinz
2004-05-07 14:20:04 UTC
Permalink
<< Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
<BR><BR>
But really ... does Abby WANT to come back and work for Kerry now, after this?
Mon Pjc
2004-05-07 16:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hedlinz
<< Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
<BR><BR>
But really ... does Abby WANT to come back and work for Kerry now, after this?
Well, reading spoilers from S.11 episodes (ep.1 for instance) they seem to
be fine with it. I just think it was the writer that was a little off with
Kerry last night.
Ellen K Hursh
2004-05-07 17:55:03 UTC
Permalink
<< Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for the team" by changing her
preferences to prevent County from having an empty slot. Very selfish
and illegal.
But really ... does Abby WANT to come back and work for Kerry now, after this?
No reason she shouldn't be fine with it - she likes most of the other
people at County, after all - but she'd be a fool not to keep that
incident in mind (that is, keep in mind that Kerry would be a capricious
ally).
Lin
2004-05-07 18:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hedlinz
<< Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
<BR><BR>
But really ... does Abby WANT to come back and work for Kerry now, after this?
Oh yeah. It's pure sexual tension between those, all the way.

Lin
Amy Gray
2004-05-07 19:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hedlinz
<< Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
<BR><BR>
But really ... does Abby WANT to come back and work for Kerry now, after this?
Considering all the back stabbing, the tight budgets, the extremely
overloaded patient load, why would someone in their right mind
want to work at this hospital?

I would think if you are in medical school the word among the students
would be you want to avoid this hospital, it's like working in
hell. I would have to think that Between Weaver and Romano the word
among students in every medical school within 500 miles of Chicago
is you want to avoid this hospital like the plague.

From New York to Los Angeles, Seattle to Miami, why would you go
to this hospital in Chicago when you could go to thousands of
other hospitals many more prestigious and many with doctors who
are tops in their fields?

This hospital in ER is owned and operated by Chicago isn't it?
Why would Chicago still be running it? Around here we had
several hospitals owned and operated by various cities.
All were told by the respective cities they were either
being sold or shut down. Now none are owned or oprated by
any city.

Also the city owned/operated hospitals tend to be
least desireable from the prospective a student in
a teaching hospital. Extremely overcrowded,
very short staffed, very high crime area,
all the other hospitals ship their uninsured there.

"They told me i could be on next season."
----------------------------Homer Simpson
----------------------------on Jay Leno
----------------------------referreing to Friends


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Gina *
2004-05-07 21:21:40 UTC
Permalink
I would think if you are in medical school the >>word among the
students would be you want >>to avoid this hospital, =A0 it's like
working in hell. I .... snip
.
.
I thought about this when Gallant matched. You know, I would be
attentive to what legal protections are given to residents . In DC
they can't work mre than so many hours per week, and cannot pull more
one 24-hr shift per week. for example barring some sort of catastrophe.
New York State has similar guidlines, as do a few other states. When
hospitalized, it's enough of a crapshoot with a resident who means well.
At least this way you know these people have no excuse to be overly
tired.
You made an interesting point about the presense of top docs at certain
places. The thing is that every teaching hospital has someone who is in
fact world-famous and cutting edge, like UCLAs breast surgeon Susan
Love. No one outside this area has heard of the Washington Hospital
Center just lost John Macoviak, a transplant surgeon who changed hearts
al over the world ad who has a phenomenal record with transplants.. I
think he went to a hospital in PA. Frankly "stars" are everywhere, in
facilities with 10 beds and mega-places with 1000+ beds.

~~~Gina~~~
Ellen K Hursh
2004-05-07 22:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Gray
<< Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for the team" by changing her
preferences to prevent County from having an empty slot. Very selfish
and illegal.
But really ... does Abby WANT to come back and work for Kerry now, after this?
Considering all the back stabbing,
The LITERAL back-stabbing, in Carter's case (in S6)... :-)
Post by Amy Gray
the tight budgets, the extremely overloaded patient load, why would
someone in their right mind want to work at this hospital?
For that matter, why would anyone in their right mind GO to this hospital
for treatment if they didn't have to do so?
Post by Amy Gray
I would think if you are in medical school the word among the students
would be you want to avoid this hospital, it's like working in hell.
I would have to think that Between Weaver and Romano the word among
students in every medical school within 500 miles of Chicago is you want
to avoid this hospital like the plague.
At the very least, you'd expect that students assigned to County would put
it at the very bottom of their match lists (if not even lower). "Nooo...
don't make me go back THERE!"
Post by Amy Gray
This hospital in ER is owned and operated by Chicago isn't it? Why would
Chicago still be running it?
TWDIS.

Hm... if County were sold, would the new owners want to keep the current
staff, or would they want to clean house and bring in their own people?
Gina *
2004-05-08 00:20:27 UTC
Permalink
At the very least, you'd expect that students >>assigned to County
would put it at the very >>bottom of their match lists (if not even
lower). >>"Nooo... don't make me go back THERE!"
T.
.
Snort! A former gf grew up in Rocky River, Ohio which I understand is
close enough to where Sam Sheppherd and his brother lived. and worked.
Growing up she was told again and again never let an ambulance take her
to the Shepperds' hospital. (Even before the scandal) The gossip was
the rats were the size of housecats. Every town must have a place like
County General.

~~~Gina~~~
DLCandC
2004-05-08 03:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gina *
At the very least, you'd expect that students >>assigned to County
would put it at the very >>bottom of their match lists (if not even
lower). >>"Nooo... don't make me go back THERE!"
T.
.
Snort! A former gf grew up in Rocky River, Ohio which I understand is
close enough to where Sam Sheppherd and his brother lived. and worked.
Growing up she was told again and again never let an ambulance take her
to the Shepperds' hospital. (Even before the scandal) The gossip was
the rats were the size of housecats. Every town must have a place like
County General.
~~~Gina~~~
We do. It's name is St. Mary's but all the paramedics, nurses and such that
I know call it "St. Murders"!! Many horror stories out of there. :-(
--
Lori1
Gina *
2004-05-08 18:28:26 UTC
Permalink
We do. It's name is St. Mary's but all the >>paramedics, nurses and
such that I know call >>it "St. Murders"!! Many horror stories out of
there. :-(
--
Lori1
.
.
In DC we had a place that was called Capitol Kill. It's name in the
50's was Causualty [of a] Hospital. Just never got its act together,
and it is now a hospice and nursing facility. I cut my administrative
teeth there, and the stories I witnessed. Now we have the Washington
Hospital Center. Patients are usually confused as to whether the person
in their room is a staff member or a prison escapee. Literally. Don't
go there unless you speak slanguage and Ebonics fluently. And are
willing to risk being burgaled by a floor nurse. Oh, how the great has
fallen. <roll eyes>

~~~Gina~~~
DLCandC
2004-05-08 22:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gina *
We do. It's name is St. Mary's but all the >>paramedics, nurses and
such that I know call >>it "St. Murders"!! Many horror stories out of
there. :-(
--
Lori1
.
.
In DC we had a place that was called Capitol Kill. It's name in the
50's was Causualty [of a] Hospital. Just never got its act together,
and it is now a hospice and nursing facility. I cut my administrative
teeth there, and the stories I witnessed. Now we have the Washington
Hospital Center. Patients are usually confused as to whether the person
in their room is a staff member or a prison escapee. Literally. Don't
go there unless you speak slanguage and Ebonics fluently. And are
willing to risk being burgaled by a floor nurse. Oh, how the great has
fallen. <roll eyes>
~~~Gina~~~
Thanks for the heads up. ;-) I won't go there.
--
Lori1
Gina *
2004-05-08 00:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ellen K Hursh
TWDIS.
Hm... if County were sold, would the new >>owners want to keep the
current staff, or >>would they want to clean house and bring in >>their
own people? .
.
Uh, in the real world when there is a takeover usually the sweep is in
admin. Medical directors usually stay, who knows why. Maybe medical
directors are old goats with lotsa butt-kissing acolytes? It would get
Kerry out of the way, and for good.

~~~Gina~~~
Pete
2004-05-07 18:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for the team" by
changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty slot.
Very selfish and illegal.
Selfish, huh? This isn't totally a paper-pushing office
politics issue, they actually treat patients there, you know.
If the hospital, which is already understaffed, loses another
doctor, then the quality of care will drop. Some people
might even die as the result. Surely that is a bigger concern
than some inconvenience that Abby might experience because
of her own past ineptitude?

Pete
Sharon Three
2004-05-08 00:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete
Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for the team" by
changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty slot.
Very selfish and illegal.
Selfish, huh? This isn't totally a paper-pushing office
politics issue, they actually treat patients there, you know.
If the hospital, which is already understaffed, loses another
doctor, then the quality of care will drop. Some people
might even die as the result. Surely that is a bigger concern
than some inconvenience that Abby might experience because
of her own past ineptitude?
Pete
Because it's against the rules of the match and kerry's actions could result
in invalidation of County's entire Match class or loss of the ER residency.
Basically, everyone who participates in the match signs a pledge not to
tamper with candidates by telling them where they ranked or how to rank
their programs. This is to prevent programs where a student might have a
personal tie (like Abby to County) from having an unfair advantage since
informal contact is probable. For example, I matched at a hospital where I
had worked part time as a med student. Several residents and attendings
wished me luck, told me they hoped I matched there, told me they'd
recommended me; but never did they promise me anything or ask how they
ranked with me. For my part, I smiled and said Riverside was on my list and
it would be great if I got a chance to work with them.

Also, Abby's board results are entirely confidential as Abby pointed out,
That means Weaver violated her confidentiality by digging them up. If Abby
reported that violation to either the med school or the national licnesing
board, Kerry would at the minimum be censured for an ethical breach. Until
Abby actually matched at County and became an employed intern, her board
scores were not Kerry's business.

Doc Sharon
Shawn H
2004-05-08 07:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Sharon Three <***@coxnospam.net> wrote:

: Also, Abby's board results are entirely confidential as Abby pointed out,
: That means Weaver violated her confidentiality by digging them up. If Abby

She didn't dig them up, she overheard the residents gossiping and
pounced on Abby immediately.

: reported that violation to either the med school or the national licnesing
: board, Kerry would at the minimum be censured for an ethical breach. Until
: Abby actually matched at County and became an employed intern, her board
: scores were not Kerry's business.

Another reason for Kerry not to act, as discounting gossip would be the
more prudent course for an administrator.

Shawn
Andrew Clute
2004-05-10 15:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
For example, I matched at a hospital where I
had worked part time as a med student. Several residents and attendings
wished me luck, told me they hoped I matched there, told me they'd
recommended me; but never did they promise me anything or ask how they
ranked with me. For my part, I smiled and said Riverside was on my list and
it would be great if I got a chance to work with them.
Doc Sharon
You have made metion a couple of things that are from Columbus in a
couple of thes threads, and I wanted to chim in:

1) Ohio State still gives out real diplomas at Graduation (Class of
'98)
2) Spring Commencment is back in Ohio Stadium after a break when it
was on the Oval while they did the renovation to Ohio Stadium
3) My daugher was born at Riverside last year -- nice hospital. Where
did you end up going?
Shawn H
2004-05-08 07:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Pete <***@spam.please> wrote:
: "Sharon Three" <***@coxnospam.net> wrote in
: news:TZLmc.8747$***@lakeread04:

:> Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for the team" by
:> changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty slot.
:> Very selfish and illegal.

: Selfish, huh? This isn't totally a paper-pushing office
: politics issue, they actually treat patients there, you know.
: If the hospital, which is already understaffed, loses another
: doctor, then the quality of care will drop. Some people
: might even die as the result. Surely that is a bigger concern
: than some inconvenience that Abby might experience because
: of her own past ineptitude?

She tests poorly. She's shown better doctoring skills than many of the
doctors already on staff. If Kerry was concerned about patient needs
she'd be wary of alienating Abby.

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-08 15:35:09 UTC
Permalink
"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote
snip
[Abby] tests poorly.
Given the hours she works, she's had little time to study. So I'd wager the
problem is not "poor testing skill" but insufficient basic knowledge.
She's shown better doctoring skills than many of the
doctors already on staff. If Kerry was concerned about patient needs
she'd be wary of alienating Abby.
Shawn H
2004-05-09 21:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote
: snip
:> [Abby] tests poorly.

: Given the hours she works, she's had little time to study. So I'd wager the
: problem is not "poor testing skill" but insufficient basic knowledge.

That contradicts what I've seen, when Abby is almost as good as Neela at
reeling off complicated lists of meds and symptoms, and has disagreed
vocally with a doctor's diagnosis (based on that "insufficient
knowledge") more than once. She does seem to choke around certain people
and certain situations, but that's not due to lack of knowledge.

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-09 22:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
: snip
:> [Abby] tests poorly.
: Given the hours she works, she's had little time to study. So I'd wager the
: problem is not "poor testing skill" but insufficient basic knowledge.
That contradicts what I've seen, when Abby is almost as good as Neela at
reeling off complicated lists of meds and symptoms, and has disagreed
vocally with a doctor's diagnosis (based on that "insufficient
knowledge") more than once. She does seem to choke around certain people
and certain situations, but that's not due to lack of knowledge.
You and I are defining "basic knowledge" differently.

Maybe it will save time if you know that I haven't bought into the disabilities
movement's effort to excuse poor performance on a test.

This is not to say that standardized tests adequately measure, say, ability to
be a physician. I don't think they do.

I am simply hard-pressed to believe it does not take a lot of dedicated book
time to prepare for the medical boards. Abby certainly has not had this time.
You do agree that Neela has had much more time to study, don't you, as Neela
isn't working two jobs (nursing and MD student) like Abby?
Shawn H
2004-05-10 15:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

:> That contradicts what I've seen, when Abby is almost as good as Neela at
:> reeling off complicated lists of meds and symptoms, and has disagreed
:> vocally with a doctor's diagnosis (based on that "insufficient
:> knowledge") more than once. She does seem to choke around certain people
:> and certain situations, but that's not due to lack of knowledge.

: You and I are defining "basic knowledge" differently.

: Maybe it will save time if you know that I haven't bought into the disabilities
: movement's effort to excuse poor performance on a test.

As a teacher, I have to take into account the different abilties of my
students and sometimes adjust the tests to ... well, I guess it's to put
them on the same level field as the other students who don't have such
disabilities. Not that this applies to Abby since as far as we know she has
no perceptual or attention disorders.

: This is not to say that standardized tests adequately measure, say, ability to
: be a physician. I don't think they do.

: I am simply hard-pressed to believe it does not take a lot of dedicated book
: time to prepare for the medical boards. Abby certainly has not had this time.
: You do agree that Neela has had much more time to study, don't you, as Neela
: isn't working two jobs (nursing and MD student) like Abby?

Do you agree that Abby has already been partly down this path before, when
her education was interrupted, and that she has years of experience that
Neela lacks?

Shawn
Caroline
2004-05-10 16:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn H
:> That contradicts what I've seen, when Abby is almost as good as Neela at
:> reeling off complicated lists of meds and symptoms, and has disagreed
:> vocally with a doctor's diagnosis (based on that "insufficient
:> knowledge") more than once. She does seem to choke around certain people
:> and certain situations, but that's not due to lack of knowledge.
: You and I are defining "basic knowledge" differently.
: Maybe it will save time if you know that I haven't bought into the disabilities
: movement's effort to excuse poor performance on a test.
As a teacher, I have to take into account the different abilties of my
students and sometimes adjust the tests to ... well, I guess it's to put
them on the same level field as the other students who don't have such
disabilities. Not that this applies to Abby since as far as we know she has
no perceptual or attention disorders.
Well, when you talk about not being able to take tests well, it's getting very
close to arguing she has some kind of disability. At least, it's a bit of an
excuse, in my opinion.

But again, I am very much against the mental disabilities movement to excuse
performance on standardized tests.

I am looking forward to the day when ADD/ADHD parents have ADD/ADHD teachers
teaching their kids... Just a wild thought that might actually happen.
Post by Shawn H
: This is not to say that standardized tests adequately measure, say, ability to
: be a physician. I don't think they do.
I should add that I don't think standardized tests should be done away with,
either. Taken with other measures, I think they are helpful to ensure some
baseline of quality.
Post by Shawn H
: I am simply hard-pressed to believe it does not take a lot of dedicated book
: time to prepare for the medical boards. Abby certainly has not had this time.
: You do agree that Neela has had much more time to study, don't you, as Neela
: isn't working two jobs (nursing and MD student) like Abby?
Do you agree that Abby has already been partly down this path before, when
her education was interrupted,
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Abby started medical school, dropped out
for awhile, then re-started. So... ? (Please clarify.)

I should mention that I do think it's notable that Abby took board-type tests to
become a Registered Nurse (ER specialized, I suppose; dunno the exact
designation). It's not like she's unacquainted with the format. Did she struggle
with her RN-ER boards, too? If so, why?
Post by Shawn H
and that she has years of experience that
Neela lacks?
Oh I think the difference in years of experience is very significant. They
didn't even have to make that so clear in the script; I still would have got
it.
Shawn H
2004-05-10 18:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Caroline <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

:> As a teacher, I have to take into account the different abilties of my
:> students and sometimes adjust the tests to ... well, I guess it's to put
:> them on the same level field as the other students who don't have such
:> disabilities. Not that this applies to Abby since as far as we know she has
:> no perceptual or attention disorders.

: Well, when you talk about not being able to take tests well, it's getting very
: close to arguing she has some kind of disability. At least, it's a bit of an
: excuse, in my opinion.

No, it's a disability if I go on to say "and some accomodation should be
made in order for Abby to take the test." Rather, I think she should be
aware of her own testing difficulty (which in this case I attribute to
anxiety and stress, not any sort of learning difference) and take steps on
her own to improve her performance on subsequent attempts. Tester, know
thyself.

: I am looking forward to the day when ADD/ADHD parents have ADD/ADHD teachers
: teaching their kids... Just a wild thought that might actually happen.

Nothing wild about it at all. I certainly imagine (or at least hope) that it
has already happened. Who better to help such students than those who've
developed coping skills in that area?

: I should add that I don't think standardized tests should be done away with,
: either. Taken with other measures, I think they are helpful to ensure some
: baseline of quality.

Agreed. Tests are good, people should take them, competition is positive,
etc., etc. If Abby truly cannot pass her boards then I wouldn't want her
treating patients as a doctor. I wouldn't hire a lawyer who had only failed
the bar, either.

:> Do you agree that Abby has already been partly down this path before, when
:> her education was interrupted,

: I'm not sure what you're getting at. Abby started medical school, dropped out
: for awhile, then re-started. So... ? (Please clarify.)

So she has knowledge and experience that is valuable, and that Neela lacks,
that may compensate to some degree for her supposed lack of study time.
You'll note she is staying out of the relationship game at this point,
focusing on this career goal instead, which I think is wise.

: I should mention that I do think it's notable that Abby took board-type tests to
: become a Registered Nurse (ER specialized, I suppose; dunno the exact
: designation). It's not like she's unacquainted with the format. Did she struggle
: with her RN-ER boards, too? If so, why?

I don't know. Are they easier than the M.D. boards?

:> and that she has years of experience that
:> Neela lacks?

: Oh I think the difference in years of experience is very significant. They
: didn't even have to make that so clear in the script; I still would have got
: it.

All signs pointing to Abby eventually succeeding despite this setback, the
kind of issue a friend and colleague such as Kerry should be giving support
for, rather than pulling the rug out from under.

Shawn
Amy Gray
2004-05-07 18:58:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:15:30 -0400, "Sharon Three"
Post by Sharon Three
The match favors the student, not the hospital. The student makes a list in
order of preference and goes to the highest ranking hospital on her list
that listed her high enough. Yeah, Kerry was suggesting to Abby that she
either withdraw entirely from the match or that she at least remove County
from her list so that there would be no danger that County would have an
empty slot to fill.
So they have an empty slot to fill......so what is the problem? They
just fil the slot rigth?
Post by Sharon Three
match list to help out your program. Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
So why not just fill that empty slot? Aren't there more people then
there are slots in the US?

What am I mising here?
"They told me i could be on next season."
----------------------------Homer Simpson
----------------------------on Jay Leno
----------------------------referreing to Friends


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Mon Pjc
2004-05-07 22:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Gray
On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:15:30 -0400, "Sharon Three"
Post by Sharon Three
The match favors the student, not the hospital. The student makes a list in
order of preference and goes to the highest ranking hospital on her list
that listed her high enough. Yeah, Kerry was suggesting to Abby that she
either withdraw entirely from the match or that she at least remove County
from her list so that there would be no danger that County would have an
empty slot to fill.
So they have an empty slot to fill......so what is the problem? They
just fil the slot rigth?
Post by Sharon Three
match list to help out your program. Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
So why not just fill that empty slot? Aren't there more people then
there are slots in the US?
Do they have to do it by a certain date though? Is that the point?

Anyways, they were 'hypothetical' comments from Kerry, and Abby
'hypothetically' put her right. End of scene. No big problem for me.
Post by Amy Gray
What am I mising here?
Not sure!
Post by Amy Gray
"They told me i could be on next season."
----------------------------Homer Simpson
----------------------------on Jay Leno
----------------------------referreing to Friends
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Sharon Three
2004-05-08 00:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Gray
On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:15:30 -0400, "Sharon Three"
Post by Sharon Three
The match favors the student, not the hospital. The student makes a list in
order of preference and goes to the highest ranking hospital on her list
that listed her high enough. Yeah, Kerry was suggesting to Abby that she
either withdraw entirely from the match or that she at least remove County
from her list so that there would be no danger that County would have an
empty slot to fill.
So they have an empty slot to fill......so what is the problem? They
just fil the slot rigth?
Well....what will happen is that County may have to hold the slot open and
empty for a period of time for Abby. In my Chief year, one of the interns
we matched had exactly the same problem. His med school required passage of
Part II of the boards to pass and he flunked. The testing setup and
schedule was way different back then and he couldn't even retake the exam
until fall. Then he had to get a passing result. He finally joined us in
January. The alternative is for County to declare the spot open. If that
happens they will be flooded with applications, however, this will mainly
include foreign medical grads (some with serious language issues), washouts
from other programsand other ne'erdowells. In other words, there is a lot
of chaff in the wheat at that point and it's tough to sort it out. A
major time consuming hassle. There is generally a dropoff in quality of the
candidate because of this, although it is possible for someone with good
credentials to fail to match, usually because they aimed too high or ranked
too few programs.
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Sharon Three
match list to help out your program. Kerry was asking Abby to "take one for
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an empty
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
So why not just fill that empty slot? Aren't there more people then
there are slots in the US?
Yeah, but it's more complicated than that as stated above.


Doc Sharon
Mon Pjc
2004-05-09 16:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sharon Three
Post by Amy Gray
On Fri, 7 May 2004 09:15:30 -0400, "Sharon Three"
Post by Sharon Three
The match favors the student, not the hospital. The student makes a
list
Post by Sharon Three
in
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Sharon Three
order of preference and goes to the highest ranking hospital on her list
that listed her high enough. Yeah, Kerry was suggesting to Abby that she
either withdraw entirely from the match or that she at least remove
County
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Sharon Three
from her list so that there would be no danger that County would have an
empty slot to fill.
So they have an empty slot to fill......so what is the problem? They
just fil the slot rigth?
Well....what will happen is that County may have to hold the slot open and
empty for a period of time for Abby. In my Chief year, one of the interns
we matched had exactly the same problem. His med school required passage of
Part II of the boards to pass and he flunked. The testing setup and
schedule was way different back then and he couldn't even retake the exam
until fall. Then he had to get a passing result. He finally joined us in
January. The alternative is for County to declare the spot open. If that
happens they will be flooded with applications, however, this will mainly
include foreign medical grads (some with serious language issues), washouts
from other programsand other ne'erdowells. In other words, there is a lot
of chaff in the wheat at that point and it's tough to sort it out. A
major time consuming hassle. There is generally a dropoff in quality of the
candidate because of this, although it is possible for someone with good
credentials to fail to match, usually because they aimed too high or ranked
too few programs.
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Sharon Three
match list to help out your program. Kerry was asking Abby to "take
one
Post by Sharon Three
for
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Sharon Three
the team" by changing her preferences to prevent County from having an
empty
Post by Amy Gray
Post by Sharon Three
slot. Very selfish and illegal.
So why not just fill that empty slot? Aren't there more people then
there are slots in the US?
Yeah, but it's more complicated than that as stated above.
Doc Sharon
Just a reminder - Kerry is there to be disliked/hated and to do the wrong
thing. Guess the writers made a good point with this conversation didn't
they! It's certainly sparked one on every board I've read!
Ellen K Hursh
2004-05-09 23:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mon Pjc
Just a reminder - Kerry is there to be disliked/hated and to do the
wrong thing.
Except when the script suddenly calls for her to be the object of
viewer sympathy. ("Oh, look, her girlfriend just died and her baby is
being taken away... everybody feel sorry for Kerry, now!")
Mon Pjc
2004-05-10 19:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ellen K Hursh
Post by Mon Pjc
Just a reminder - Kerry is there to be disliked/hated and to do the
wrong thing.
Except when the script suddenly calls for her to be the object of
viewer sympathy. ("Oh, look, her girlfriend just died and her baby is
being taken away... everybody feel sorry for Kerry, now!")
maybe John Wells likes the way the old kerry was written in previous
series'? And he doesn't like her getting the sympathy vote for too long!
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