Discussion:
To Sharon, Now that Jeanie Boulet is back for a while it seems...
(too old to reply)
Hunter
2008-01-06 14:03:58 UTC
Permalink
....here are a couple of old questions I was meaning to ask for a long
time: What does a Physician's Assitant-Jeanie's old job-do? It sounds
like it could be a halfway point between a nurse and a full blown doctor.
:-) And dies he/she "outrank" a R.N.?

In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
--
----->Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
Mrs. Dud
2008-01-06 16:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter
....here are a couple of old questions I was meaning to ask for a long
time: What does a Physician's Assitant-Jeanie's old job-do? It sounds
like it could be a halfway point between a nurse and a full blown doctor.
:-) And dies he/she "outrank" a R.N.?
A physician assitant is basicaly a doctor with a couple of
less years of education. I have one that I see who works
with my doctor, very thorough, very competent, he also
runs everything by my regular doctor.

The PA is much more thorough than the doctor himslf/herself
is. The PA has the time to spend with the patient that
the doctor lacks.

My understanding is PA has more training than
a nurse (RN), has the same amount of schooling
as a doctor but lacks the Residency, the ability
to prescribe medicine. But they work very closely
with the doctor who has that all covered.
Post by Hunter
In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
Trevor Smithson
2008-01-08 19:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrs. Dud
Post by Hunter
....here are a couple of old questions I was meaning to ask for a long
time: What does a Physician's Assitant-Jeanie's old job-do? It sounds
like it could be a halfway point between a nurse and a full blown doctor.
:-) And dies he/she "outrank" a R.N.?
A physician assitant is basicaly a doctor with a couple of
less years of education. I have one that I see who works
with my doctor, very thorough, very competent, he also
runs everything by my regular doctor.
The PA is much more thorough than the doctor himslf/herself
is. The PA has the time to spend with the patient that
the doctor lacks.
My understanding is PA has more training than
a nurse (RN), has the same amount of schooling
as a doctor but lacks the Residency, the ability
to prescribe medicine. But they work very closely
with the doctor who has that all covered.
PA's can prescribe certain medications. Ones that are less toxic,
less powerful, and less addictive.

Rules vary by state on what exactly they can do without physician
orders. There are also nurse practicioners, who are above an RN
but below a PA.
Post by Mrs. Dud
Post by Hunter
In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
Depends on skill level and experience. But I'd take an experienced
trauma RN over even an experienced, certified paramedic.
DawnK
2008-01-09 20:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrs. Dud
Post by Hunter
....here are a couple of old questions I was meaning to ask for a long
time: What does a Physician's Assitant-Jeanie's old job-do? It sounds
like it could be a halfway point between a nurse and a full blown doctor.
:-) And dies he/she "outrank" a R.N.?
A physician assitant is basicaly a doctor with a couple of
less years of education. I have one that I see who works
with my doctor, very thorough, very competent, he also
runs everything by my regular doctor.
The PA is much more thorough than the doctor himslf/herself
is. The PA has the time to spend with the patient that
the doctor lacks.
My understanding is PA has more training than
a nurse (RN), has the same amount of schooling
as a doctor but lacks the Residency, the ability
to prescribe medicine. But they work very closely
with the doctor who has that all covered.
Post by Hunter
In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
I've gotten antibiotics, from the PA who works with my family practice
doctor. Nurse practitioners can also prescribe medications, too. I love
seeing the PA, because I'm usually in and out more quickly, than if I'd seen
the doctor for things like sinus infections and sore throats.

Dawn

Dawn
unknown
2008-01-10 01:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter
In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
This was covered when I took my EMT class. The paramedic would
handle the case.
sharon
2008-01-10 17:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Hunter
In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
This was covered when I took my EMT class. The paramedic would
handle the case.
Not always, as I explained upthread. Depends on the experience and training
of the individuals, especially in this situation, which is a Good Samaritan
type event and not an offical call for either of them.

Sharon
unknown
2008-01-10 20:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by sharon
Not always, as I explained upthread. Depends on the experience and training
of the individuals, especially in this situation, which is a Good Samaritan
type event and not an offical call for either of them.
When I took the EMT class they told us the EMT would take priority,
since apparently the EMT would be covered by the good samaratin law
where as the nurse would not be. (Would this vary from state to
state?)

There was also something about the EMT routinely did first
responder/first aid and was trained in treating the
life threatening injuries and then packaging the
patient up for transport to the hospital whereas the
nurse isn't.
sharon
2008-01-10 23:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by sharon
Not always, as I explained upthread. Depends on the experience and training
of the individuals, especially in this situation, which is a Good Samaritan
type event and not an offical call for either of them.
When I took the EMT class they told us the EMT would take priority,
since apparently the EMT would be covered by the good samaratin law
where as the nurse would not be. (Would this vary from state to
state?)\\
Nope, you've got it wrong for every state of which I am aware, EMT's are not
a special case granted special treatment anymore than nurses are excluded
from protection. EVERY medical professional who responds to an emergency as
a volunteer (ie not called as part of their job) would be covered by Good
Samaritan laws. The laws were designed to encourage all medical pros to
render assistance without fear of civil action should something go wrong and
an EMT gets no more consideration than a nurse or anyone else. Neither
individual would be liable in this case.
Post by unknown
There was also something about the EMT routinely did first
responder/first aid and was trained in treating the
life threatening injuries and then packaging the
patient up for transport to the hospital whereas the
nurse isn't.
There are, in fact, nurses who work in first response settings who would be
perfectly capable of handling the initial assessment and management of a
patient in the field, just as there are EMT's who work solely in formal
medical settings such as ER's and are unaccustomed to working in a non
hospital setting. Therefore, to insist that in every case, the EMT would
function as the leader, would be incorrect. Sure, most of the time, an EMT
with up-to-date field experience is the best choice, but not always. I know
more than a few EMT's who haven't been out on a run in years, while I know
plenty of nurses who do ridealongs as a regular part of their job. The
experience and training of the individuals involved should always be the
first consideration.

Sharon
sharon
2008-01-10 17:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter
....here are a couple of old questions I was meaning to ask for a long
time: What does a Physician's Assitant-Jeanie's old job-do? It sounds
like it could be a halfway point between a nurse and a full blown doctor.
:-) And dies he/she "outrank" a R.N.?
It really doesn't fit to describe one of these jobs as 'outranking' another,
they are entirely separate occupations and it's not a question of which one
is 'better'. They handle different situations, comparing them on a relative
scale is an apples and oranges situation.

A physician's assistant basically gets a bachelor's degree and takes a
series of exams allowing him/her to practice basic (primary care) medicine
under a physician's direct supervision. They are often allowed by law to
prescribe medications to treat uncomplicated conditions, they usually don't
prescribe narcotics. Licensure laws vary from state to state.

Physician assistants serve as 'physician extenders' which means they work
with a doctor, usually seeing and treating patients with uncomplicated
issues which frees up the doctor to handle the more complicated, sicker
patients. A lot of hospital ER's are inundated with patients with minor
problems such as earaches, strep throats, sprained ankles and such and PA's
are often used to triage and handle these minor cases. However, everything
they do must be reviewed by an MD who bears responsibility for their
actions. Here in Ohio, anyway, a PA may not practice unless a physician is
on the premises and immediately available during the time the PA is working.
A family practitioner who went to med school with me actually lost his
medical license because a PA employed by him was caught by the state board
seeing patients when he was not present. The board takes this stuff very
seriously.

Nurses, on the other hand, could attend a nursing school for 2-3 years and
become an LPN or RN but most these days are attending regular colleges and
getting bachelor's degrees in nursing rather than just being a 'diploma'
nurse. My hospital and many others won't even hire RN's who don't have a
bachelors and it is nearly impossible for a diploma nurse to become an
administrator without the BS.

In a setting like the ER, a nurse would follow the PA's orders, which would
ultimately have to be cosigned by a doctor. However, there are advanced
practice nurses who practice independently and would function very much like
PA's in that they would care for their own patients, write prescriptions and
the like. They, too, must have physician supervion, although, in Ohio at
least, the doc doesn't have to be on site, he/she can serve as a consultant.

Nurse practitioners, unlike PA's, usually have specialty training in a
single area, like nurse midwifery, family practice, pediatrics, gynecology,
etc. and stick to their specialties unlike PA's who tend to provide more
basic care but in a variety of areas.
Post by Hunter
In the same vain, does a paramedic "outrank" a nurse? That is if a
paramedic and a nurse are traped in an elevator with you badly injured,
who will take orders from whom? We know that a doctor would take over for
both of them if he/she was there....
--
----->Hunter
I don't think that can be adequately answered with a 'one size fits all'
explanation. It would probably depend on the training and experience of
both individuals. When an EMT is called out on an official run, he/she
answers to no one, including anyone who steps up and says they are a doctor.
Nor should they; I am a doctor, but I haven't treated anyone having a heart
attack in more than 20 years; I sure wouldn't want me in charge of a cardiac
arrest over an EMT who sees the situation regularly.

As a resident, I got reported by an EMT for telling him to bring a laboring
patient directly to the hospital rather than delivering her at home. He
called into L&D to say they were in the house, the baby was visible and they
were going to do the delivery there. Fine, very appropriate. When we had
heard nothing for an hour and a half, I called the house where the senior
EMT said the patient was 'crowning', he could see the baby's head and he
would not transport. I suggested that it was highly unlikely that a woman
having her fourth baby would be crowning for an hour and a half (5 minutes
or less is typical) and that something might be wrong in his assessment, ie,
he might be looking at her vaginal wall and mistaking it for the head, or
the baby might be breech or have a birth defect or something else that was
impeding progess. They ended up staying there, telling the lady to push for
a total of nearly 4 hours until she finally delivered. When they got to the
hospital, he turned the patient over to me. She had a huge cervical tear,
indicating that she was pushing before she was completely dilated, she was
also very swollen. And, because she'd had a bunch of kids, her bladder was
sagging and could easily be seen bulging through the vaginal opening. I
told him it looked like she was told to push before she was dilated and
pointed to her bladder and asked if that is what he saw 'crowning' and
mistook for the head. He was a cocky SOB who made it very clear that he was
not going to listen to a mere girl and denied it. I pointed to the baby,
who had a thick head of hair and asked his partner if what he stood there
and watched crown for 4 hours had hair or was it bald like her vaginal wall.
The partner then 'fessed up that they spent hours and hours trying to
deliver her bladder before the actual baby was visible. His paramedic pal,
still full of himself, reported me to the fire chief for 'disrespect'.
Unfortunately for him, as soon as the case was reviewed, he was the one who
got reprimanded.

Sharon
unknown
2008-01-10 21:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by sharon
I don't think that can be adequately answered with a 'one size fits all'
explanation. It would probably depend on the training and experience of
both individuals. When an EMT is called out on an official run, he/she
answers to no one,
Wrong. They answer to their employer (be it the ambulance service,
a city, a municipality, or the hospital.) All EMTs are connected
with a specific hospital and the hospital ultimately can question
why something was or was not done.
sharon
2008-01-10 23:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by sharon
I don't think that can be adequately answered with a 'one size fits all'
explanation. It would probably depend on the training and experience of
both individuals. When an EMT is called out on an official run, he/she
answers to no one,
Wrong. They answer to their employer (be it the ambulance service,
a city, a municipality, or the hospital.) All EMTs are connected
with a specific hospital and the hospital ultimately can question
why something was or was not done.
Well, duh! I thought it went without saying that EMT's on the job OF COURSE
have bosses and supervisors who are in charge of them. Nobody could expect
someone with just a few months training to operate without strict protocols,
lots of backup and close supervision. The issue was about whether someone
coming upon the scene such a a nurse or physician would be able to overrule
an EMT who is there in the course of his/her job, and the answer there is,
nope, they wouldn't, unless, of course, the EMT was in contact with their
employer and was ordered to give way, which really wouldn't happen very
often.

EMT's, for those who are unaware, have very basic training in first aid and
emergency care, they receive far less training than nurses or PA's. Most
are high school graduates with a few months of training. They are fine at
providing the very basic assessments and procedures, but not qualified
beyond the length of time it takes to get the patient to the hospital. An
EMT is great in an emergency, but not for anything beyond that while nurses
and PA's have much broader and deeper training.

Sharon
Dropping The Helicopter
2008-01-11 02:01:07 UTC
Permalink
sharon wrote:

[snip]
[...] and it is nearly impossible for a
diploma nurse to become an administrator without the BS.
My understanding is that it's equally impossible to become a pretend
doctor without BS.


(OMG sharon(s) seriously, you're making this too easy! ;-))

[snip]
As a resident, I got reported by an EMT
OMG, this oughtta be good!
for telling him to bring a
laboring patient directly to the hospital rather than delivering her at
home.
I'm just guessing here that "telling" is not quite the correct verb.
Let me suggest an almost-certainly-more-accurate phraseology: "... for
going all Abby-On-The-Sauce on him."

[SERIOUS ASIDE]: That's why you hate Abby so much, isn't it? You see in
her all the personality and character defects that you yourself exhibit,
as if looking in a mirror. It's distorted mirror though, isn't it?
For, while Abby comes through each challenge smelling like the
proverbial rose, those same defects cause you nothing but grief. Abby
saves the day by being bitchy, you just make enemies. Abby gets all the
guys, you're microwaving yet another Hot Pocket(tm). Abby gets the
praise, you get called on the carpet. And, perhaps worst of all, Abby
gets the respect that rightfully belongs to you.

What do I win? ;-)
He called into L&D to say they were in the house, the baby was
visible and they were going to do the delivery there. Fine, very
appropriate. When we had heard nothing for an hour and a half, I called
the house where the senior EMT said the patient was 'crowning', he could
see the baby's head and he would not transport. I suggested that it was
highly unlikely that a woman having her fourth baby would be crowning
for an hour and a half (5 minutes or less is typical) and that something
might be wrong in his assessment, ie, he might be looking at her vaginal
wall and mistaking it for the head, or the baby might be breech or have
a birth defect or something else that was impeding progess.
How many expletives did you have to delete from that little bit of "She
Said" there before posting it? Yeah sharon(s), it's like I'm in your head!
They ended
up staying there, telling the lady to push for a total of nearly 4 hours
until she finally delivered. When they got to the hospital, he turned
the patient over to me. She had a huge cervical tear, indicating that
she was pushing before she was completely dilated, she was also very
swollen. And, because she'd had a bunch of kids, her bladder was
sagging and could easily be seen bulging through the vaginal opening. I
told him it looked like she was told to push before she was dilated and
pointed to her bladder and asked if that is what he saw 'crowning' and
mistook for the head. He was a cocky SOB
Unlike the resident in the case. Eyeroll.
who made it very clear that he
was not going to listen to a mere girl and denied it.
"Made it very clear" huh? Did he say that? Anything to the effect of
"I'm not gonna listen to a mere girl, sucka"? Any comment about your
gender at all ("mega-beehotch" doesn't count)? No? Yeah I didn't think so.

Check your DSM, I think that's called "hypersensitivity" or
"hypervigilance" or something. Hyper something, I'm pretty sure of that.
I pointed to the
baby,
Which is very rude.
who had a thick head of hair and asked his partner if what he
stood there and watched crown for 4 hours had hair or was it bald like
her vaginal wall. The partner then 'fessed up that they spent hours and
hours trying to deliver her bladder before the actual baby was visible.
His paramedic pal, still full of himself, reported me to the fire chief
for 'disrespect'.
Which I'm sure was a completely unfounded accusation, right? Because I,
for one, cannot believe that you, sharon(s), of all people on this
Earth, are even capable of treating anybody with 'disrespect'! NAY, I
REFUSE TO BELIEVE SUCH DRIVEL!!!
Unfortunately for him, as soon as the case was
reviewed, he was the one who got reprimanded.
And sharon(s) wins again! Whew! For a minute there I was afraid that
you were going to tell us that your superiors told you to "x-nay on the
ega-may itch-bay routine"!
Sharon
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