Discussion:
ER - 15x19 - "Old Times" [12 Mar 2009]
(too old to reply)
Rob Jensen
2009-03-13 04:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Added x-post to alt.tv.er

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:07:32 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com wrote:

>So, was it just me or was that a really, really good episode? Lots of
>familiar faces and yet none of them felt like they were simply jammed
>into the episode for the sake of being there.

It was a really, really good episode, even taking into consideration
that the show was absolutely dreadful from about Anthony Edwards's
last year and a half on the show until Noah Wyle semi-left the show.
(I mean, when he stopped being a lead rather than continuing his 2-4
episodes per year thing for the past three-four years).

What I thought was great was that Wells clearly put the story concerns
above the "Oh my god, I really got George Clooney (and, umm, those
other guys) back!" factor. With the double-A plots in Washington with
Doug & Carol and with Carter & Benton at Northwestern, you got a great
self-contained duology about transplants -- that we may be saving
someone we love without ever even knowing it (in a way) -- that's
almost its own minimovie with Neela and Sam doing cameos, but even at
that, the B-plot, with the abandoned baby, still tied into the
theme/motif of how and when giving something up can be a good thing.

Loved Benton pulling weight in the OR. Seems that transplant doctor
had an even worse reputation than Benton let on. A doctor's not just
a prick (as Benton described the guy) when his entire surgical team
almost unilaterally decide to take Benton's lead in doing the prep
work. So it almost feels like they were implicitly suggesting that
either Benton had the clout at Northwestern (which, after all, is a
teaching hospital and the transplant surgeon wasn't teaching, he was
barking orders) to feel confident that he could take the surgeon down
with no repercussions (I mean, he felt he could get away with it), or
the transplant surgeon was already on so short a leash anyway that
Benton was more or less the one amongst his coworkers who finally had
the type of in that they all were hoping to get to take him down.
Like, perhaps, the chief of surgery, the staff's equivalent of Weaver
or whoever, had told the surgical staff that he (the chief) can't take
the surgeon down without more evdience and Carter's situation just
provided Benton with the opportunity.

Also, I really liked the place that Benton is now at as a person
because he was pretty much inscruitable when he was at County/on the
show. Which is something I kinda also liked about Doug & Carol --
that the story showed that these doctors were much happier now that
their residencies were over and they're well into their careers.

Also, loved the coda that Carol never finds out that the kidney went
to Carter, just to "some doctor." I hope that I wasn't the only one
who figured out by about 40 minutes or so into the show that none of
them, not even Neela or Sam, would find out about Carter.

Also (again), i thought it was interesting at the beginning that all
of the returnees were listed as leads alongside the current regulars,
just kinda hoping that this meant that it was something better than
just the usual cameos that happen 100% of the time, but they story
clearly had them as the stars of the episode, the lead actors of the
episode (alongside Neela, Sam and Uncle Jesse). So this was the one
time that, well, a credit situation like this was done right.

I hope the episode gets nominated for an Emmy for Best
Screenplay/Drama. And that Clooney guy -- he should maybe get
nominated for Best Guest Actor/Drama.

>Plus, how adorable was Shiri Appleby with her short hair?

Shiri Appleby is adorable period.

When the series ends, I hope her character has to transfer her
internship to a certain hospital not called the University of
Washington in Seattle. You know, the one with the crazy blonde who
might be dying of Stage IV metastatic melanoma. That would be
interesting.

-- Rob
Lorraine G
2009-03-14 16:30:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 13, 12:26 am, Rob Jensen <***@aol.com> wrote:
> Added x-post to alt.tv.er
>
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:07:32 -0700 (PDT), ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> >So, was it just me or was that a really, really good episode?  Lots of
> >familiar faces and yet none of them felt like they were simply jammed
> >into the episode for the sake of being there.  
>
> It was a really, really good episode, even taking into consideration
> that the show was absolutely dreadful from about Anthony Edwards's
> last year and a half on the show until Noah Wyle semi-left the show.
> (I mean, when he stopped being a lead rather than continuing his 2-4
> episodes per year thing for the past three-four years).
>
> What I thought was great was that Wells clearly put the story concerns
> above the "Oh my god, I really got George Clooney (and, umm, those
> other guys) back!" factor.  With the double-A plots in Washington with
> Doug & Carol and with Carter & Benton at Northwestern, you got a great
> self-contained duology about transplants -- that we may be saving
> someone we love without ever even knowing it (in a way) -- that's
> almost its own minimovie with Neela and Sam doing cameos, but even at
> that, the B-plot, with the abandoned baby, still tied into the
> theme/motif of how and when giving something up can be a good thing.
>
> Loved Benton pulling weight in the OR.  Seems that transplant doctor
> had an even worse reputation than Benton let on.  A doctor's not just
> a prick (as Benton described the guy) when his entire surgical team
> almost unilaterally decide to take Benton's lead in doing the prep
> work.  So it almost feels like they were implicitly suggesting that
> either Benton had the clout at Northwestern (which, after all, is a
> teaching hospital and the transplant surgeon wasn't teaching, he was
> barking orders) to feel confident that he could take the surgeon down
> with no repercussions (I mean, he felt he could get away with it), or
> the transplant surgeon was already on so short a leash anyway that
> Benton was more or less the one amongst his coworkers who finally had
> the type of in that they all were hoping to get to take him down.
> Like, perhaps, the chief of surgery, the staff's equivalent of Weaver
> or whoever, had told the surgical staff that he (the chief) can't take
> the surgeon down without more evdience and Carter's situation just
> provided Benton with the opportunity.
>
> Also, I really liked the place that Benton is now at as a person
> because he was pretty much inscruitable when he was at County/on the
> show.  Which is something I kinda also liked about Doug & Carol --
> that the story showed that these doctors were much happier now that
> their residencies were over and they're well into their careers.  
>
> Also, loved the coda that Carol never finds out that the kidney went
> to Carter, just to "some doctor."  I hope that I wasn't the only one
> who figured out by about 40 minutes or so into the show that none of
> them, not even Neela or Sam, would find out about Carter.
>
> Also (again), i thought it was interesting at the beginning that all
> of the returnees were listed as leads alongside the current regulars,
> just kinda hoping that this meant that it was something better than
> just the usual cameos that happen 100% of the time, but they story
> clearly had them as the stars of the episode, the lead actors of the
> episode (alongside Neela, Sam and Uncle Jesse).  So this was the one
> time that, well, a credit situation like this was done right.

I was also glad that they put the old gang in the credits as stars,
not guest. I feel taht gave the some more continuity, too. Many of us
have complained over the years how tptb screw up continuity all the
time, but they really got it right this time. Clooney and Margulies
were great together; it seemed like it was just yesterday they'd
played Doug and Carol.

And Eriq made Benton act just like he used to with Carter, being a
mentor by urging him to call Kem.
>
> I hope the episode gets nominated for an Emmy for Best
> Screenplay/Drama.  And that Clooney guy -- he should maybe get
> nominated for Best Guest Actor/Drama.
>
> >Plus, how adorable was Shiri Appleby with her short hair?
>
> Shiri Appleby is adorable period.  
>
> When the series ends, I hope her character has to transfer her
> internship to a certain hospital not called the University of
> Washington in Seattle.  You know, the one with the crazy blonde who
> might be dying of Stage IV metastatic melanoma.  That would be
> interesting.
>
>   -- Rob

That would be very cool. :)

Lorraine G.
Micky DuPree
2009-03-26 08:00:57 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>, Rob Jensen
<***@aol.com> writes:

: Loved Benton pulling weight in the OR.

That was my favorite part of the episode. I was touched by Benton
sticking around for Carter when he saw Carter didn't have anyone else,
but for me, getting the work done and getting it done well has always
been the best part of the series.

: Seems that transplant doctor had an even worse reputation than Benton
: let on. A doctor's not just a prick (as Benton described the guy)
: when his entire surgical team almost unilaterally decide to take
: Benton's lead in doing the prep work. So it almost feels like they
: were implicitly suggesting that either Benton had the clout at
: Northwestern (which, after all, is a teaching hospital and the
: transplant surgeon wasn't teaching, he was barking orders) to feel
: confident that he could take the surgeon down with no repercussions (I
: mean, he felt he could get away with it), or the transplant surgeon
: was already on so short a leash anyway that Benton was more or less
: the one amongst his coworkers who finally had the type of in that they
: all were hoping to get to take him down.

I don't think it has to be all that complicated a hidden story. We like
to believe that doctors, nurses, and technicians always bring the A
game, but the truth is, there are good and bad examples of all of them,
and even the good ones have their good and bad days. You really, really
want someone like Benton to follow your progress throughout your
healthcare crisis so that no one drops the ball, but most of us aren't
lucky enough to rate that kind of scrutiny. When my mother had cancer
in the late '80s, she was the victim of a doctor's mistake, a lab
mistake, and a nursing mistake, all within the space of two months. She
was very, very lucky that none of them turned out to be fatal.

The fact that the other O.R. personnel in the episode were only too
happy to follow proper procedure once Benton pointed it out just says to
me that the writers were depicting the negligent transplant surgeon as
an aberration. The fact that Benton was insisting only on following
official hospital policy told me that his ass would have been covered
had the transplant surgeon complained about Benton's interference
(doubly covered once it turned out that the transplant would have failed
had Benton not forced the issue of the reperfusion solution at the
outset).

The Ross/Hathaway plot line didn't engage me, though I liked Susan
Sarandon's performance, I guess because they weren't engaged with the
regular cast, and because I've seen the hesitating donor proxy plot many
times before without seeing anything new here.


: Also, I really liked the place that Benton is now at as a person
: because he was pretty much inscruitable when he was at County/on the
: show.

I would have said hypervigilant, driven, and unforgiving rather than
inscrutable, but I also like where Benton is now, which seems to be more
comfortable with himself, even as he continues to be vigilant in the
O.R.

-Micky
Obveeus
2009-03-26 11:18:18 UTC
Permalink
"Micky DuPree" <***@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
> The Ross/Hathaway plot line didn't engage me, though I liked Susan
> Sarandon's performance, I guess because they weren't engaged with the
> regular cast, and because I've seen the hesitating donor proxy plot many
> times before without seeing anything new here.

The biggest annoyance of that plotline was how much it was written to serve
Clooney's ego. The Carol Hathaway character basically walked around not
being able to communicate with the patient's family just so that Ross could
be the one doing 100% of the 'save the day' stuff. From their roles, it
would be far more logical to have had her being a successful communicator
and him being a successful doctor. Instead, he did both while she made
goo-goo eyes at him.


> : Also, I really liked the place that Benton is now at as a person
> : because he was pretty much inscruitable when he was at County/on the
> : show.
>
> I would have said hypervigilant, driven, and unforgiving rather than
> inscrutable, but I also like where Benton is now, which seems to be more
> comfortable with himself, even as he continues to be vigilant in the
> O.R.

Benton was always one of my favorite characters in the series.
sharon
2009-03-26 22:33:56 UTC
Permalink
"Obveeus" <***@aol.com> wrote in message
news:gqfo9q$56i$***@news.motzarella.org...
>
> "Micky DuPree" <***@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>> The Ross/Hathaway plot line didn't engage me, though I liked Susan
>> Sarandon's performance, I guess because they weren't engaged with the
>> regular cast, and because I've seen the hesitating donor proxy plot many
>> times before without seeing anything new here.
>
> The biggest annoyance of that plotline was how much it was written to
> serve Clooney's ego. The Carol Hathaway character basically walked around
> not being able to communicate with the patient's family just so that Ross
> could be the one doing 100% of the 'save the day' stuff. From their
> roles, it would be far more logical to have had her being a successful
> communicator and him being a successful doctor. Instead, he did both
> while she made goo-goo eyes at him.
>
Conversely, Doug was the physician who had cared for her grandson from the
outset while Carol undoubtedly didn't even meet SS's character until after
the boy was declared brain dead. It's not uncommon for family members to
view members of the transplant team as 'vultures' who might try to coerce
them into a donation. I thought it was very plausible that the grandmother
knew Doug better, had positive feelings about the care he had given her
grandson all along and was far more likely to trust his opinion and advice
that those of a nurse just called into the case purely to arrange an organ
harvest. Also, the character of Doug has always been shown to be an
excellent communicator with patients and families.

Sharon>>
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